Ethics and Competitor-Controlled Comps

[Eugene Shuler]

For what it's worth, the one thing I occasionally see at most competitor judged events, are folks from the same team judging each other. I would suggest that if it's a comp where points are earned, or money involved, it might be a good idea to not have guys from the same team judge one another if at all possible.

I'm not saying that this happened in this particular event, as I wasn't there. Just a simple observation.

[Michael Yelton]

Competitor controlled events are really great ways to learn b/c you get to watch fellow competitors in action. It's very eye opening for sure. It also takes out the hassle of finding judges. Bottom line is if someone is going to cheat they're going to do it in any event whatever it may be. And for what it's worth I judged someone from DeadDrift and Freestone.

[Dejon Hamann]

Competitor controlled events are how the Czech's dominate the competitive fly fishing world!!!  It is my strong believe that the number of competitor controlled events in North America will directly relate to our success at the world championships.  Not only does it take the incredible organizational hassle of finding volunteers out of the picture, but it provides a whole new educational component to competitions.   

[Paul Bourcq]

I would agree with both sides.  I love competitor controlled events and have fished many of them.  As Eugene knows we typically try to not pair up team members if possible to save the headache.  In the days when minis were just something the NC team did to stay sharp we didnt care and judged each other.  Now if we go through the process of setting up a mini we might as well go an extra step to make it a points bearing comp.  I think that as long as there is a roughly equal spread of competitors we should try to keep team members apart. 

[Chris Smith]

Sounds great, but logistically it's a challenge.

Long story short, in a random draw you can't predict who will draw what beats or groups. 

It's much simpler to simply hold yourself and your competitors, be they teammates or otherwise, to a high standard.

[Loren Williams]

First,

I applaud anyone who undertakes the headache of organizing a competition because as a nation we need to get as much experience as possible.

Next, with many anglers now belonging to two teams with upwards or 20 to 25 total team mates I see it as an illogical assumption that individuals can be prevented from controlling team mates.  Personally, as long as the competition does not go toward points for Team USA/World Team selection then I'd like to encourage any format that uses FIPS tackle regulations.  If actual organization/logistics have to be altered in order to make the comp happen then I think we should support it.

I know on an individual basis, cheating anglers will cheat and sleep well at night no matter what.  I do like to think that as USA anglers as a group we are well above that.

[Bill Strickland]

I personally don't find any benefit in having teammates judge one another in terms of cheating. At the end of the day, they are still competing against each other and none of us would risk the chance of losing our personal ground in the over all standings for another teammate. One fish a lot of the time is a major deal breaker. Being as competitive as we are, we all want to win.

As for competitor judged events, i have seen far less " bending of the rules " than with volunteer judges of which most just learned the rules the day before during the controller meeting. In terms of a learning tool, I cant agree with you more!

[Kalvin Kaloz]

I had an awesome opportunity to go to the Czech Republic and spend some time with the Czech team. Some of the coolest things I learned were not patterns or fishing techniques but more how heavily the country itself is entrenched in Comp Fly Fishing.

Here are just some interesting points:
- 6ish hours to drive anywhere in the country
- 300-350 ranked competitors
- 90-100 comps a year... Yes that many!!! And winter and summer due to temps/flows don’t allow many organized comps.

Just think about those 3 facts for a minute... now put a bit more into perspective; the guy who took 3rd at worlds this year had competed in about 25 comps in 9 months prior to worlds, keep in mind that those 25 comps are against some of the best anglers in the world and how each member of the Czech team is ultimately selected. He is also the coach of a regionally based team where when he is not competing he is coaching/growing members of his team… Great concept for learning leadership as well as followership, one thing often overlooked in many organizations.

Few other notes:
- Czech team is selected a year out and have all year to build, grow and train as a team
- Each angler fishes as many comps as possible and each comp is ranked and points awarded. I participated in one of their “minis”…it was 40 competitors strong with many highly ranked individuals and a few individual medal winners at the world level in the mix!!!
- All the regional comps are competitor controlled…ONLY way to have that many comps…
- The top 14 anglers after a year of point earnings in regional and national events are selected. All 14 then compete in a multi day 5 session venue to replicate as close to what the world venues will be with the makeup between rivers and lakes. The top 7 are selected for worlds and the 8-14 go to the European championships… They truly believe this system selects the best anglers to go forward year in and year out! 

Botomline: the system from start to finish is setup to best posture the team for winning!

Here is what really sparked me to reply to this thread… ALL the regional comps are “Competitor Controlled” you are talking 85-90 comps that ALL count to the standing for the selection of the top 14! Heard the same story many times: In the past they had used other clubs to control and vice versa, so club A would judge Sat and club B would judge Sun. The problem they had time and time again was payoffs and cheating between clubs…They firmly feel that competitor controlled events were the solution and what they have stuck with. As bill Strickland and other mentioned; in this fashion we are all competing against each other, whether it’s a 10 person mini or Regional’s!     

[Sean Crocker]

Great response Kalvin. I really enjoy the competitor controlled events as well. I've learned so much while watching other team mates. It's also great for getting constructive criticism . I feel your own team mates will take the time to critique you more so than a stranger. I have controlled and have been controlled by my team mates and I think we all agree that all that dishonesty will do is hurt the individual that is fishing.  I hope if one of my team mates ends up being my controller in the near future that they will be tough on me and stick to the rules like glue. That folks is how we will get better.

[Ben Vandevender]

Dont think it matters as long as a random draw is utilized. Judges or Competitor judged both make great competitions which we definitely need more of.  Random draw is the equalizer and that is what lets some novice get to judge and learn from a very experience angler, and vice versa.  Those are the things I look forward to, watching someone who I see as a better angler and how they operate will only help me improve my game. Its like a free clinic!

[Chris Smith]

Many thanks to you Chris for volunteering!

With the number of comps popping up all over the country, competitor judged events must become the norm.  Quite simply, there are only so many individuals who have the means and time to volunteer as controllers, and we need to preserve those controller pools for large events like regionals and nationals.

You can only go to the well so many times I'm told.

Unless you are Steudler, of course.  I don't know what he promises those folks up in State College!

[Dejon Hamann]

"Bill Steudler doesn't have to ask for volunteers. He just walks around town looking sincere and they sign up."

Kalvin, thank you for posting your experience in the Czech Republic.  I'll echo Smith's sentiment again: "competitor judged events must become the norm."  This is the only way we NorthAmericans will catch up with the upper echelon of the competitive world. 

[Eugene Shuler]

Kalvin, thank you for posting your experience in the Czech Republic.  I'll echo Smith's sentiment again: "competitor judged events must become the norm."  This is the only way we NorthAmericans will catch up with the upper echelon of the competitive world. 

I agree with that 100%. One of the hardest part of putting on a comp of any sort, is finding enough judges.
The competitor controlled comps only work if EVERYONE holds themselves, and each other, to a higher standard. The questions arise about a competitor's honesty and integrity when people switch controllers, switch boat mates, rules get tweaked mid comp etc. By holding ourselves and each other to higher standards, this stuff should stop happening. That's the only way these will ever work out correctly and everyone can know they did their best ,and their fellow competitiors did as well.

[Chris Smith]

No worries...good conversation IMO.

[Loren Williams]

Guys,

If you are going to focus on the negative aspects of competition, any competition, then you are going to end up crawling in a hole.  All any one who enjoys this can do is consistently try to improve..both their skills and the experience.  Shady individuals will always exist, and with higher stakes come higher temptations.

Some of what i saw in Italy almost made me want to retire, especially on the lake....but after looking to the positive the fire is lit again.  Do not think comps are perfect around the world.  Keep the faith, keep striving and do our best to represent.

In the end, what we do is great fun and will add to our pleasure as anglers long after we retire. 

[Mark Hanes]

Well said Loren.  I really think focusing on the negative within the sport really serves no purpose it only gives you an excuse as to why you do not place well at a competition.  It happens get over it and take the high road. 

[Ben Vandevender]

As with any thing competitively driven, B.A.S.S., MLB, NFL, there are always those people who may not take the high road, at the end of the day all of those individuals answer for those actions.  I do believe that just as B.A.S.S. is addressing the same very issues, the foresite or foundation is needed to keep pomp and circumstance in our loved sport.  May not be feasible now, but as the sport grows it will be something that can not be ignored. Just my .02 cents.  I love competing, competitions, learning, and the comradery that comes with it.  As our own "referees" so to speak we have to hold ourselves and our other anglers to a high standard, in my mind to keep this sport legit not just for the anglers, but for desired sponsors, and to maintain growth.

[Seth Gerring]

These comps will never be perfect. I do know that they are hard to put on and have many moving parts. There will be bumps in the road on every comp, I have yet to see one comp with out bumps.  I think that is fine and I'm glad that there are people taking care of those problem when the arise.  I think that complaining about the small things is a slap in the face of those that put on the event.  I know for a fact that the Stonefly Classic planning was in depth.

I'm not sure why this discussion is attached to this thread but it make it seem like this comp had problems. Being part of this comp and the planning of this comp I know it went smooth and was fair.

As for someone cheating, in this event or any other that I have been involved in, it has to be a very small percentage. If it happens it needs to be dealt with, but focusing only on that part is not healthy for our sport.  Like Loren said let not focus on the negative.  I promise you this there was more positive that came out of this comp,for all those that attended, than negative.  Let focus on the positive.

[Daniel Podobed]

I don't think I've seen a discussion about this, but what happens if rules are broken by competitors, are there varying degrees of penalties? Do the event organizers go through everyone's gear to make sure all of it is fips mouche friendly?

I think that is a good idea. Before the event takes place, everyone's gear is checked and given the okay. That way it could cut down on the number of infractions possible. This may happen already, I don't know.

[Dejon Hamann]

fyi, we've split this thread.  It's a good conversation, but divergent from the original.

I've changed the title as it was a mistake. There are no self controlled events sanctioned in the TroutLegend League.

"Competitor Controlled" was the intended phrase.

Carry on. Keep it civil please. 

[Dejon Hamann]

To answer your question. League Members can file official disputes via their TroutLegend Board Of Advisers representative regarding angler or competition infractions.  To date, there has been no such need.  But the option does exist.  Non-League Members participating in sanctioned events may also file disputes directly to me.  

The accuracy of the TroutLegend Leader Boards is paramount and we will always weigh any submissions with equal weight.  Possible sanctions may include session, angler, competition point disqualification, but will be decided ultimately by the TL BOD voting body.

Most "issues" are dealt with by event organizers on a competition by competition basis.  This is the preferred method.

D, love your enthusiasm for the sport!  Keep it flowing. However, I will say that many of your questions will be answered when you engage in your first competition - whether as a competitor, controller, or spectator.  Sometimes it's hard to adequately describe all the angles to someone who hasn't attended an event.  

I don't think I've seen a discussion about this, but what happens if rules are broken by competitors, are there varying degrees of penalties? Do the event organizers go through everyone's gear to make sure all of it is fips mouche friendly?

I think that is a good idea. Before the event takes place, everyone's gear is checked and given the okay. That way it could cut down on the number of infractions possible. This may happen already, I don't know.

[Daniel Podobed]

thanks Dejon. Yea, I'm just prying as much as I can before I take the plunge.

[Jason Baker]

Oh yeah, I think you all are frickin' cheaters......
























Just Kidding...hehehe

[Pat Brechbill]

I'm sure that their is always some bending of the rules during a competition, especially when you have non-competitors judging. I think when you have other competitors judging you actually have fairer competitions as most everyone is very familiar with the rules and knows what things should look like. I can tell if your flies aren't 20"s apart, if you foul hooked a fish, and if your hooks aren't barbless. I also believe that when you have a peer judging you, there is a desire to be better, do better, and fish more intensely. I've competed now in a few events and before that I judged last years SE Regional and the US Nationals, I didn't see really any blatant stretching the rules in any of my encounters with the competitors. I was actually rather impressed with how most anglers self policed themselves when foul hooking a fish. This sport is growing and the competitors are getting better, it will pay off for the US in the long run and I'm glad to be a small part of it.