Flouro Alternatives

[Dejon Hamann]

Flourocarbon Tippet is frigging expensive!  Every fly fisherman knows the pain of walking into a fly shop and walking out $15 lighter for less than 30 measly yards of line. 

Having to be stingy with your tippet can keep you from catching fish.  This applies to the weekend angler, but really hits home for the competitive angler.  You don't want to have to think twice when it's time to trade out nicked line or second guess snapping off that snag.

I'm still working my way through a large order of FrogHair I put in last year, but within the next month I'll be turning to some non tippet flourocarbons to get the job done.

Right now I have my eyes set on Seagur AbrazX Fluorocarbon.  The 4lb is supposed to be the same diameter as 5x Rio Flouro Plus :
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0065058124073a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntt=seagur&Ntk=Products&sort=all&Go.y=0&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&_D%3Asort=+&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=0&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1
At $20 for a 200yard spool it's certainly a bang for your buck!

Since 5x is almost my exclusive tippet size for Inland trout it makes a lot of sense.  And I can keep a sparingly used spool of 6x around for those certain occasions.

Any other good Flouro Alternatives you guys have fallen upon?

[Mark Hanes]

I have been using this stuff for a about 6 weeks now and I really like it. i use the 4lbs that is basicly 5X and the 6ld that is 3x.  I think you can actually call it 6 and 8lbs test this stuff is tuff and works great for nymphs and wets.  It is a little too stiff for dries.

[Chris Michels]

The seguar 4 lb is amazing.  I use it exclusively for my 5x applications.  It's tough as hell too.

Pline halo 2lb is a good source for 7x if you ever go that small.  It's great for small spring creeks and low clear conditions.

[Dejon Hamann]

Has anyone tried the Seagur Invizx?

"The softest, most supple fluorocarbon line ever produced! INVIZX can be used on casting or spinning reels in freshwater with good hooksetting power, exceptional abrasion resistance and knot strength, and it's nearly invisible to fish. Made from 100% exclusive Seaguar resins. 200 yards."

[Chris Lee]

PLine 4 lb and 2 lb is all I use.

[Dejon Hamann]

Thanx for the input guys!

I'm going to develop a full list of top "Fluoro Alternatives" for continued reference here. Please keep the recommendations coming!

[Rashed Abdullah]

I have been a fan of fluro since it first came out. i am not sure why, but I feel that I get more hook ups with fluro.  I have fished side by side with friends who do not use fluro and I get at least a 5 to 1 hook up ratio while fishing side by side with them. I know this is not a scientific method but then when we switch up, my catch ratio drops significantly.  The diameter of the two lines used were the same..so the difference cant be the line diameter...I would attribute it to the light absorbing qualities of the line.

I used to use the orvis stuff but recently switched to frog hair and love the stuff. Seagar is also good but it has a larger diameter that both the orvis and frog hair. I use the seagar in rivers where the water is moving fast. In slow water I switch to the thinner diameter frog hair.  The method works for me.  It would be hard for me to make the switch from fluro to another type of line.  

r

[Dejon Hamann]

Rk, make no bones about it - when I say "flouro alternatives" I'm merely talking about cheaper non "leader" type options.  Fluoro is, in my book, the hands down winner for tippet above all other materials.

[Rashed Abdullah]

Dejon,

I use the non expensive fluoro line for my leader..and then for the tippet..the last 2 feet or so, i use the expensive stuff. that way If I break off, I only loos less than 2 feet at a time. Helps me save on the expensive stuff.  I use this method for all the methods I use for catching trout.  I am extra anal when it comes to tippet selection when i fish for steel.

I think for most situations you can go with the "non-traditional" tippet material in most cases. The only time I would go to the more expensive stuff is if I am fishing frog water...or if I am fishing heavily preasurred water like the upper section of the salmon river.

R

[Dejon Hamann]

Bought a spool of Seagur Invisx yesterday and used it long leader nymphing for about 8 hours.  200yrds of 100% Fluorocarbon for under $20... not bad.  The 4lb line seems to have the same diameter as 5x Froghair.  The breaking strength seemed equivalent or close to.  I did feel the abrasion resistance might be a bit less than the Froghair, but it was hard to tell.  The Invisx did seem to be a good deal "limper" than the Froghair... which might account for some of it's abrasion resistance. 

So far I give it 2 thumbs up!!  I'll be testing it out much more over the next week.

[Mark Hanes]

I know the abrazax is good stuff I am thinking the Invisx will be great for dries. 

[Jay Looper]

Here is a link to a site Quest Outdoors that I visit from time to time - it dedicated to all Great Lakes fishing styles
http://www.questoutdoors.net/gear/articles/ftest/

The test they performed is only for 10 lb tippet which is way higher than what you guys are talking about. However, it is very telling about quality and price. Take a look at the Berkely Vanish compared to the Frog Hair, you really don't get that much more for the extra 15 cents a foot.

[Dejon Hamann]

Good link AA!  They've got alot of useful information on that site.

One thing that's so interesting about that study is the variance of advertised vs actual diameters.  I was looking at my spool of Invixz last night and the stuff is advertised as being .007 which would be the same as FrogHair 4x.  However, I blood knotted a piece of Frog hair 4x and 5x to each side of the Invizx and it seems identical to the 5x not the 4x.  Guess I need to get a micrometer. 

Than of course there's a bit of superstition involved in the process.  Since I ran with Invizx last time out and didn't do so well I started looking for answers.  Is it truly 100% Flourocarbon?  Is it truly 5x?  Blah blah blah.  Amazing how I'm so apt to blame such a small thing as a .001 variance in line diameter as my downfall and not my inability to change flies, detect strikes, be more stealthy, adjust to adverse weather conditions, and all the other factors which REALLY determine catch rate.

[Mark Hanes]

I have been using the Seguar for most of the season and really i have not noticed much difference in fish catching.  There box diameters are off the 4lb is really 5X and the 6lb matches up diamater wise with 3x.  they are .01 off in both cases if you mic them.  I also think both have a breaking strgenth greater than what they advertise I am guessinf they both are about 2lbs stronger than advertised.  I am using teh Abrazax and it is really tuff stuff. 

[Lance Egan]

Remember that the diameter is what separates the men from the boys in leader materials.  The testers in the link provided didn't really iron out any wrinkles.  They compared lines of different diameters.  The ONLY standard in tippet is the "X" scale.  The "X" relates to diameter.  If you test items based on pound test alone, you are likely testing VERY different products.  Most anglers forget that pound test on the box is only breaking strength.  In other words I can test 10 pound line that is as thick as my pinky finger and another brand that is also 10 pound test that is as thin as my hair (very thin).  Obviously the thinner diameter product is superior. 

A better test is to compare lines of the same diameter and then study the characteristics of each.  For example:  Maxima 4X is 4 pound test.  Umpqua superfluoro 4X is 7 pound test.  Both are .007 diameter.  Which is the superior product?  I realize I'm comparing nylon with fluorocarbon, but the same holds true with the conventional gear lines that anglers are purchasing to use as fly fishing tippet.  Seagar invisx 5X is 4 pound, Umpqua superfluoro or Rio fluoroflex+ in 5X both test at 5 pound.  That is an entire pound stronger with the same diameter.  At the end of the day (or comp) that equalls more fish landed. 

You can try to beat the system, but in the long run you get what you pay for....
 

[Robbie Bell]

Hi There,

I believe that Lance is correct in saying that the diameter is the really important part of the equation.

However from experience you cannot go by what it says on the label and a micrometer is the only real answer.

Maxima have been understating both their diameter and breaking strain ever since I got into the tackle trade which was 23 years ago.

They are not the only ones either.

Rio used to be spot on with their diameters as did Orvis Mirage but they are both now above their stated sizes. At least over here.

My guess is that a lot of manufactures just move their labels one step out of sync with their product.

Also with some of the “super” products if we cannot trust the diameter can we trust the breaking strain?

Now why is diameter so important?

Well I think the following is true….

“ The stiffness of any material varies with the fourth power of its diameter”

Basic Engineering which translates to….  If you double the diameter of any material you increase the stiffness by sixteen times. It then does not take a great leap of faith to see that a slight increase in diameter will double the stiffness.

I think that is an important factor in how a fly “behaves”

There is obviously a relationship between fly size and tippet diameter.

I do not really go along with the fact that fluorocarbon is more invisible to the fish as we use  much thicker leaders for Salmon and Cod which must have just as good eyesight as Trout.

However the fact that its refractive index is so close to that of water does not do me any harm particularly on pressurised catch and release waters.

About 10 or 12 years ago when Fluorocarbon hit our shores a friend and I hired a swimming pool and did some experiments with different leader materials amongst other things.

There was a distinct difference between it and nylon.

The way I described it at the time was that when the flies were on the end of the Fluorocarbon they appeared like a soldier standing to attention.
When on the end of monofilament they appeared to be “slouched“.

I think this was due to its higher Specific Gravity which was closer to the fly itself.

Now please do not take any of this as out and out gospel because the really important thing about any product is your confidence and experience with it.

Please treat this as my $0.02 and please feel free to pick holes in it.

Best Regards

robbie

[Mark Hanes]

Lance,

Since then i have taken a micrometer to the Abrazx.   They do mic out at 5X for the 4lb and 3x for the 6lb.  Both are a whole lot stronger than there labeled strength.  I have caught some fresh 10 pound steelhead on the 3x and I was even able to horse them a little.   I have no way of testing the strength of the line but I would guess the 4lb is actually closer to 6lb and the 6lb is closer to 8lb.  After more than 6 months I actually prefer the Abrazx over the Rio and  Froghair fluros I was using.  When you add in the money saved its a great buy.   

[Dejon Hamann]

Good science guys.  No one loves fishing science like this angling geek.

I'd agree generally with Lance, if you've got the mula (or some sweet endorsement deal) and you're competing at the highest level where every single micrometer helps your cause then go for the best stuff on paper. 

However, for a large part of the field (regular joes) money is short and small 30m spools of tippet are not only incredibly expensive, but also limiting in other ways.  I think the trade off of a "pound of paper breaking strength or diameter" vs being able to thoughtlessly change out your tippet or rip off 6 and 8 foot sections at will a greater gain.  Especially when you consider some of the new Euro applicaitons.

My personal experience, and I've been running with Seagur Invisx for a season, is it just works.  Does it seem a bit more supple than Rio and Froghair? Yup.  Do I seem to break off anymore fish due to tippet breakage? Nope.  Is it nice not having to really worry about using it up? Yup.  Are these all very unscientific personal experiences? Yup.

btw, robbie. I've thought about procuring my buddies swimming pool for a day to see how all my sinking lines really behave in the water... but I'm worried about what the chlorine will do to them 

[Lance Egan]

Robbie,

Thanks for chiming in.  Good points!  I like the idea of fluoro being closer to the specific gravity of a sunk fly, thus looking more natural.  I've never considered that posibility.

Mark,
Thanks for the reply.  I'm glad the Abrazx is working great for you.  I hope it continues to bring you success.

Dejon, 
I know all about money being short, after all, I'm just a fly shop rat...  In my fishing, I have had similar results to yours.  Froghair must be very good at marketing, because I can't figure out why anyone pays for nylon that costs as much as most fluoro and isn't nearly as strong per diameter.  It is fairly supple, but other than dry fly fishing I'm not convinced super supple tippet is an advantage.  Froghair fluoro is also expensive, and again isn't as strong per diameter as other products costing several dollars less.  Rio fluoroflex plus is very popular in the shop, and boasts high strength per diameter, but for me I've had trouble with knot strength.  This is probably due to my lack of skills and selection of knots but I have not had any success with Rio's tippet.  That said I do like their tapered nylon leaders, as the memory is easily released.  My favs tippet wise are Umpqua superfluoro and Seagar grand max.

GO FISH!!!

[Lance Egan]

Dejon,

I checked out Seagar Invizx today at work, and compared the diameters vs. pound test.  I hope that Seagar is underratting their product because the advertised strength to diameter ratio isn't very good.  I know this product is less expensive, but at what cost to your angling?  Check out these details!

Diameter       Seagar Invizx # test   Seagar Grand Max       Umpqua Superfluoro   Froghair Fluorocarbon   Rio Fluoroflex Plus
0.007 4X              4            7                              7                                  6                                   7
.008 3X              6                       9.2                            8.5                               8                                   8.5
.009 2X              8            12.5                           11                                10                                 12
.011 0X              10                   16.5                           15                                12                                 15


I know for me one fish landed or lost can often make or break me in a comp. 

From my perspective, I try to make sure every aspect/detail in my control is maximized.  As you know fishing is full of factors that cannot be controlled.  I think you understand where I'm coming from...

One of my favorite phrases is "you can't argue with success".  If what you are using works, it must be OK but anywhere I can get an edge on the competition I grab hold of that edge!!!

I’ll leave this thread alone now…..I’m off my soap box….

[Nick Naclerio]

In my experience tippet selection is different for everyone. Why I'm not sure there must be subtle differences in the way we tie knots or something, which is a whole different topic. I used to use Rio flouroflex plus and liked it. When it was good it was good but than out of the blue I'd snap fish off on hook sets. I then switched over to Cabelas Prestige Plus which is actually the same as Frog Hair (it even says Frog Hair on the spool). The Prestige Plus (Frog Hair) is hands down my favorite and reasonably priced if you can call anything in fly fishing reasonably priced. However I also use the Seagar Abrazx I really do like it. The breaking strength is IMO under rated, we actually use the 4lb for carp fishing. Is it any stronger than the Cabelas/Frog Hair I don't think so and if I had to use one for a comp I'd go with Frog Hair.

So you guys are going to get what I've used for flouro tippet and please remember these are my experiences.

Rio Flouroflex Plus: Very strong but at times inconstant.
Rio Flouroflex: Junk
Orvis Mirage: Actually preformed just like the Flouroflex Plus.
Berkley Vanish: Has a true 5x diameter but runs on the weak side.
Seagar Abrazx: The 4lb is very close to 5x in diameter and very strong.
Cabelas Prestige Plus/Frog Hair: Very strong and always consistent.

I actually bought a few spools of Frog Hair flouro to compare to Cabelas and they both preformed exactly the same.

[Frank Muscente]

Hey guys,

Is there a shelf life on floro tippet lines?  Like if I have a spool that has sat in my cabinet for 2 years does it loose strenth?

[Jeremy Allan]

That's one of the good and bad things about fouro. On the one hand it never goes bad. On the other hand it never goes bad. What I mean is regular nylon tippet will break down over a couple months and disappear. Flouro, once in the river or where ever it ends up will be there for years and years.

[Torrey Collins]

I know I'm late to the party on this one, but I didn't read this thread before & I cannot resist throwing in my 2 cents.
I've noticed over the years of working in fly shops that everyone seems to have a different opinion about tippets- one person says a certain one is the bomb, another says the same brand is the absolute worst.  Go figure.

Remember that when comparing different brands, that:
1. You cannot trust stated break strengths, they can be way off (with lines often being stronger than claimed)
2. You cannot trust stated diameters (usually slightly bigger than marked)

Lines marketed for spinning are commonly much stronger than the stated break strength.  This is marketing- by making a line 4# test that actually is 6-7#, you've created a "stronger" 4# line that will be stronger than other competitors 4# line.  Always look at diameter, and as stated above, don't completely trust the stated diameter, brands such as Maxima are famous for being one or even two sizes over.

Fluoro prices seem to keep going up, up, up, and I can understand people looking for ways to cut the cost, esp. those on a tighter budget who use long tippets, re-rig frequently, compete, or just plain fish a lot.

Of the fluoro tippets marketed to FF, I've had excellent results with Frog Hair, Rio Fluoroflex Plus, and Seaguar Grand Max.  In spinning fluoro, I've used Seaguar AbrazX in 4# with good results, and at about $20 for 200 meters, it's pretty darn economical.  When I buy FF fluoro in the sizes I use most, I typically go with 100-110 meters/yard "guide" spools for the increased economy- usually the way the pricing works out, instead of $14-15 for about 25-30 yards/meters, it's more like $30-35 or so for about 100-110 yards/meters

Be aware typically when you purchase big spools of "fluoro" marketed for spinning, that typically they are blended with nylon monofilament (which helps keep cost down but totally changes the characteristics of the line), whereas the top of the line FF fluoros are pure fluorocarbon.  And yes, you pay top $ for that.  This isn't necessarily true for all of the spin lines, but many.  And remember that fluro has evolved over the past 15 years, the Frog Hair, Rio Fluoro +, and Seaguar Grand Max are all what I would call 3rd generation fluoros, with very high break strengths, increased flexibility, and easier to knot.  While the Seaguar AbrazX performs  very well & is at a much more attractive price point, I'm not sure what "generation" of fluoro it is- I'm virtually certain it's not the same stuff as the Seaguar Grand Max though.

Some personal observations, comments & opinions on lines I've used:
-Last I knew the Rio Fluoroflex Plus & the Orvis Mirage are the same (both made by Rio)
-Seaguar invented fluorocarbon
-Frog Hair is stronger than the stated break strengths, while the Rio Fluoro Plus & Seaguar Grand Max seem to be spot on.  I'd say they all break at around the same pound test, despite different labeling.  I've had excellent results with the Frog Hair, with less break off than other brands.  I've landed numerous Steelhead on 3x ranging from 12-17# plus, even horsed in King Salmon up to 30 pounds.
-Seaguar AbrazX is much stronger than the stated strength, which as I said above, is very common in lines marketed for spinning.  I would guess the 4# tests out at 5-6#.  Steelheaders I know use the 6-8# in this with good results.
-For those of you who still like to use Maxima, the stuff on the FF tippet spools is the same as the stuff on the big spinning spools.  And while Maxima is almost always 1-2 sizes over diameter, it is also much stronger than stated, and being an "old school" monofilament, also has tremendous Impact Strength (ability to withstand a sudden heavy load), making it a good line for when you need a tough line that can take violent jerks/loads without snapping- e.g. fishing for Chinook Salmon, swinging big flies for Steelhead, SW fishing, Bass, etc.  Old school monos like this & Ande are actually superior to fluoro & modern copolymer monos in terms of their ability to withstand sudden, violent shocks.
-Fluoro is manufactured overseas & made to be a certain mm (not inches) in diameter, and as such don't always match up exactly with our "X" system.  This partly explains why even premium fluoro is often a little over diameter (a half size is typical).
-If you tell me you don't like a particular brand of tippet/line because it "pigtails" when you tie a knot, then it's you, NOT the line.  There isn't a brand out there that I haven't heard this complaint about, yet it never happens to me with any brand whatsoever.  Lube your knots with saliva before fully tightening, and pull closed with a steady, medium-speed pull (not a jerk).
-1x fluoro is equal to 5x mono in visibility, as scientifically measured using "edge detection technology"- whatever that is!  Lol
-While I've never seen a scientific assessment of it, fluoro is more abrasion resistant than mono, and if I had to guess I'd say it's about 3x more.  This saves me a lot of flies (and therefore $) and keeps me fishing more (and therefore catches me more fish).
-Fluoro is slightly stiffer than mono.  If this is a worry to you, going one size smaller more than compensates for this.
-Fluoro is denser than mono, meaning it will sink better/faster, and also turn over better (due to increased mass, that's also why heavier butted leaders turn over better than thinner ones).
-IMHO, mono is better for dries (it's limper and so gives better drag-free floats with nearly weightless dries, it's also not as dense and so won't tend to sink your dries), but I prefer fluoro for most of my subsurface work, primarily due to the superior abrasion resistance.  The reduced visibility is a bonus, but I think most people worry too much about this- I think lighter tippets sometimes catch more fish primarily because the smaller diameters are more flexible and so give a better drag-free, more natural presentation.  Rarely do I find I have to go smaller than 5x fluoro to catch trout on nymphs, even with smaller patterns.

[Kierran Broatch]

Be aware typically when you purchase big spools of "fluoro" marketed for spinning, that typically they are blended with nylon monofilament (which helps keep cost down but totally changes the characteristics of the line), whereas the top of the line FF fluoros are pure fluorocarbon.  And yes, you pay top $ for that.  This isn't necessarily true for all of the spin lines, but many.

Thanks for the informative post, Torrey. 

I use Berkley Vanish of various sizes for non FF leaders (mostly ice fishing), and was thinking of using it for Euro nymphing, mainly becuase it's $15 for 300 yards.  I don't understand how they can bill it as 100% Fluoro, when it must be blended with mono at that price point.  It's treated me well in other applications and I think the 4# Vanish will be a fine & much less expensive substitute for the true fluoro I'm using now.