Euro Leader Formula

[Kalvin Kaloz]

During Nationals Dejon had found several things that may help the masses, so I will start to post some of the knowledge I have squirreled away. I never intended to keep this info a secret...I just assumed most of the guys here have this knowledge already and I was in the minority. In NO way do I want this to come off wrong or sound as if I am bragging but after controlling 5 sessions on Spring Creek, talking with Dejon, Kev and several other competitors I realized and gained confidence that I do have a solid foundation and know more than I thought.

Here is a Leader Formula that I found on the web.

European Nymphing Leader Workshop

1) Modified French Leader Formula
    30lb Maxima (36”-40”)
    25lb Maxima (24”)
    20lb Maxima (20”)
    15lb Maxima (20”)
    10lb Gold Stren (20”)

Tippet Ring attached to Golden Stren Utilizing Clinch Knot
4-8’ tippet material attached to tippet ring utilizing Clinch Knot
Note: the 10lb Gold Stren section is your curly cue.

Cury Cue Directions:
1) Wrap Gold Stren or favorite colored mono around a wooden dowel and duct tape both ends.
2) Place in boiling water for 5 minutes
3) After boiling, place in freezer overnight
4) You are now ready to fish French Style

2) Modified Standard Czech Leader (Multi Colored)
    30lb Maxima (24”)
    25lb Maxima (20”)
    20lb Maxima(18”)
    15lb Red Amnesia (8”)
    10lb Golden Stren (8”)
    6lb Pink Fl Carbon (8”)

Tippet Ring attached to Pink Fl Carbon utilizing Clinch Knot
4-8’ tippet material attached to tippet ring utilizing Clinch Knot


Keep in mind that tippet rings are not permitted when competing and I personally will take the "train how you fight" approach but if using this method strictly for enhanced strike detection with no desire to compete the tippet ring is a hell of a lot easier. 

[Kalvin Kaloz]

I will add from my experience that these particular formulas are a lil dated! I think when you are starting out and trying to throw 12-20' leaders and multiple flie riggs...it will be eaiser to start with a tapered leader (for me what worked was a 9' Rio salmon steelhead leader at 10lb then sighter to 4 or 5X) Makes the transition a bit more simple!

I wont say who but I will say that several of the "Team" guys were rigged with straigt mono to sighter to 4X or 5X no real leader to speak of! I am talking....backing to 15lb mono to 10lb sighter to tippet!!!

While I think this setup provides ultimate flexibility and reduces the number of knots and friction points...I am certain there is an ammout of skill that is required to make this work as flawlessly as I witnessed!!!

[Dejon Hamann]

Great stuff Kalvin!  Keep em' coming.

I really like the level mono leader too, but it's more of a "one application" stick.  At least in my experience you have to "sling" flies heavy enough to propel the line - since mono doesn't really cast on it's own.  So, when you want to switch midstream to another application like throwing some light dries you have to do a whole rod/reel or reel change.  If you know you're going to be fishing the one method for an entire session this presents no problem. If you're on a difficult system that offers up changes over the course of your beat then utilizing a longer tapered leader is a bit more versatile. 

Speaking of which, and this goes out to the field.  What are the longest and heaviest tapered leaders you've found on the market. Ideally I'd like a 20foot tapered leader down to 15llb tip.

[Rashed Abdullah]

boiling and freezing line..what is the reason for this?

[Dejon Hamann]

boiling and freezing line..what is the reason for this?

It sets the coil. 

[Kalvin Kaloz]

Hey D, The most robust knotless leader I have seen is Rio makes a Steelhead/Atlantic Salmon 15' in 16lb.

[Todd Oishi]

Karel Krivanic's "Czech Nymph" book has several very effective leader formulas that are used by some of the members of their national teams. This book is an excellent reference and guide for those are interested in learning more about this subject...

[Paul Bourcq]

K2 has some good forumulas posted there.  I have in the past run a larger sighter up top with heavier amnesia in green and red.....then maxima.....then a small fluro sighter.  The benefit was that you could fish light and work smaller stuff with the lower sighter at whatever distance you wanted.   IF you needed to start dragging some heavy stuff through you could use your top sighter. 

Since then i have gotten rid of the top sighter in favor of a longer piece of mono (8-10 feet)  The deal was with all those knots passing through my guides i knew it was a matter of time before i got them hung and lost fish. I lost several fish in the SE qualifier because of this.

 I always try to make my first piece of line in my long leader long enough to pull in enough line to land fish without more than a knot or two (if any) going through my rod tip.  So my leader i fish now is 20 feet give or take.  My rod is 10 feet so my first section of line is about 10 feet long.  When i hook a fish 20 or more feet out i can strip line in and land it more easily.  Furthur when fishing upstream with lighter bugs you are constantly "rolling" the rod back to you before you make a cast.  Sometimes i will slowly strip line back in to keep up with the line when making longer upstream drifts.  I found that when knots hung up in my rod tip it screwed up the whole flow of fishing long leaders up stream.

I personally dont like coiled indicators but i have heard team usa members say that some of them like them when nymphing in slower water.

[Dejon Hamann]

Hey D, The most robust knotless leader I have seen is Rio makes a Steelhead/Atlantic Salmon 15' in 16lb.

Thanx, that might just do the trick!

[Mark Hanes]

Nice i will have to tie some up and see how it works for me.   

[Bret Bishop]

The deal was with all those knots passing through my guides i knew it was a matter of time before i got them hung and lost fish. I lost several fish in the SE qualifier because of this.

Have you tried Loon's knot sense?

[Chris Smith]

K2 has some good forumulas posted there.  I have in the past run a larger sighter up top with heavier amnesia in green and red.....then maxima.....then a small fluro sighter.  The benefit was that you could fish light and work smaller stuff with the lower sighter at whatever distance you wanted.   IF you needed to start dragging some heavy stuff through you could use your top sighter. 

Since then i have gotten rid of the top sighter in favor of a longer piece of mono (8-10 feet) 

I've been trying the same thing Paul, and see no reason to not construct it this way.  It really works well for a quick transition from a Polish to Spanish method.

That being said,  I've heard a rumor that there's a pending Fips Mouche rule change that would require fly line to be out the tip of your rod.   That would throw kinks into this setup.

Can anyone confirm said rumor?

[Dejon Hamann]

The deal was with all those knots passing through my guides i knew it was a matter of time before i got them hung and lost fish. I lost several fish in the SE qualifier because of this.

Have you tried Loon's knot sense?

Brett, welcome to the site!  So, I gather you probably tie your own leaders using knot sense?  Could you tell us generally what kind of leader setups and sighters you are using these days?

[Dejon Hamann]

That being said,  I've heard a rumor that there's a pending Fips Mouche rule change that would require fly line to be out the tip of your rod.   That would throw kinks into this setup.
Can anyone confirm said rumor?

I think it's been proposed lately, and a few people are passing the idea around, but I don't see it sticking.

[Paul Bourcq]

no ive not tried knot sense very much.  It would help to use it though.  I will definately pick some up and try it.  I have been using stren hi vis gold and some pink fluro that josh stepehens gave me.  Im not sure where he got it so i just bum it off him when i see him.  Ive tried some stuff jason baker (bugslinger) had and it worked pretty good too.  Ive ordered some yo-zuri fluro in pink and green to try something different.  Not sure when it will show up.

[Bret Bishop]

Thanks, Dejon.

My leader set up is not that much different than the one mentioned at the beginning of the thread. I like a digressive leader for quick turnover and a progressive leader when I want the flies to land light. I do use knot sense. It works great.

For a sighter, I am a fan of the slinky. My version is made up of three colors: Berkley Solar Collector green, Stren yellow and Cabelas pink fluro (Rasta colors). The yellow is coiled. For different situations, I carry it in different test combinations: 12,10,8; 10,8,6; and so on. This allows me to stay with in the FIPS rules and still have a set up that turns over whatever I want to tie on the end. I am currently experimenting with the length of the coil and overall sighter as well as the size of the coil itself.

I love the versatility of this setup...fish it long, or short...fish the slinky elevated or float it. It is all good.

[Paul Bourcq]

Brett, do you tend to fish the coiled sighter floating when fishing slower moving water?  I have fished the coiled sighters alot and favor just a straight sighter leader in most situations.  It seemed alot easier to fish the coil in slower water though.  Curious what your thoughts are.

Could you elaborate a little more about the progressive and digressive leader setups.  Seems like the latter wouldnt turn over as well but i may be misunderstaning you.

[Bret Bishop]

Brett, do you tend to fish the coiled sighter floating when fishing slower moving water?  I have fished the coiled sighters alot and favor just a straight sighter leader in most situations.  It seemed alot easier to fish the coil in slower water though.  Curious what your thoughts are.

Could you elaborate a little more about the progressive and digressive leader setups.  Seems like the latter wouldnt turn over as well but i may be misunderstaning you.

It does come down to personal preference. I like to fish a setup that gives me the most versatility...which includes a coil (most of the time). Yes, a floating slinky coated in paste is good when fishing slow water. A straight sighter doesn't give me that option. I also like the visibility of the elevated slinky up close and at a distance. As you know, competition success comes down to efficiency. The more ways I can present my flies with on setup the better.

Do you feel like you loose touch with the flies with the coil when fishing with it elevated?

As for the formulas for progressive and digressive leaders consult the book Oshi alluded to. Pascal's leaders are hard to beat. I definitely use the digressive leader the most, but there are times when a more delicate approach is needed. You are right to point out that the progressive leader does not turn over as well, but that is the desired effect.

[Mike Norton]

K2 has some good forumulas posted there.  I have in the past run a larger sighter up top with heavier amnesia in green and red.....then maxima.....then a small fluro sighter.  The benefit was that you could fish light and work smaller stuff with the lower sighter at whatever distance you wanted.   IF you needed to start dragging some heavy stuff through you could use your top sighter. 

Since then i have gotten rid of the top sighter in favor of a longer piece of mono (8-10 feet) 

I've been trying the same thing Paul, and see no reason to not construct it this way.  It really works well for a quick transition from a Polish to Spanish method.

That being said,  I've heard a rumor that there's a pending Fips Mouche rule change that would require fly line to be out the tip of your rod.   That would throw kinks into this setup.

Can anyone confirm said rumor?

wvyou..you know I saw something on a rule change also pertaining to the fly line out the tip and have a color different from line to decipher at a distance ie controller being able to tell from 30 yds away persay....I'll have to look for it I know i printed it for some strange reason.....I did check fips-mouche but did not see anything. Dam hate getting old and not being able to remember things.
Mike

[Paul Bourcq]

Do you feel like you loose touch with the flies with the coil when fishing with it elevated?

Bret, that is pretty much it.   Often times when im fishing say with a heavier point bug I will feel the bottom.  I feel the tick....tick.....tick....almost like a cadence.  Well ive noticed fishing over very finicky fish on my local tailwater that when they take the fly they can spit it without your sighter or anything moving.  There are no visual indication that you just got hammered.  But more times then not when the fly hits that tick that i was expecting isnt there because the fish either slows the cast of flies down or lifts that point bug up ever so slightly.  So im expecting tick.....tick.......tick  but when i get tick.......tick.......nothing   I will set the hook.  Essentially setting on what im not feeling as to what I am feeling.  I like coiled indicators but that "tick cadence" stuff acounts for alot of my fish. Its a love hate with the coiled indicator because i like the feel of a mono leader.  But on the other hand there are times I will cast to a likely spot drift a couple seconds then do a quick lift and recast, so i dont always fish on pure rod feel.  I really need to dig up some more info about those leaders you are building im having a hard time making any progress improving what im fishing now. 

[Nick Naclerio]

pbourcq: I think leaders are a personal preference and alot has to do with what rod you use. Although trying using a stiff mono like Maxima, I think that can help. When casting a long leader setup the length and action of the rod plays a much bigger part than the leader does. Also I noticed you mentioned your flies on the bottom and not really liking the coiled mono. Its tough to gets used to and track at first but I feel the best possible setup is one where your anchor is heavy enough to get close to the bottom but not heavy enough to touch the bottom. With your flies setup in this manner any little twitch in the indicator is usually a fish and some times its little. I've had days where the coils will not even straighten and just two or three of them will jump. Once you get into using a longer leader you really need to use you sighter to see your strikes because you will lose all feel. I think you will find once get used to it you will like the coiled mono over everything else by alot. The only downfalls to the mono are it can be a pain in the ass to tie into your leader and under certain light conditions it can be hard to track. I now always have a back up with me like Darcon backing so I can use that at times when it tough to see the mono.

[Bret Bishop]

The only downfalls to the mono are it can be a pain in the ass to tie into your leader

Good point Blacklabel about rod sensitivity. Also you make a great point about fly weights. When Euro nymphing at medium to long distances you definitely can't fish heavy flies like you can when fishing short and visual detection takes precedence over feel.

I am curious though about the problems you are having tying your mono into your leader. Can you elaborate?

[Todd Oishi]

It does come down to personal preference. I like to fish a setup that gives me the most versatility... As you know, competition success comes down to efficiency. The more ways I can present my flies with on setup the better.

Agreed!!! Time lost by switching setups to suit changing substrates and gradients will seriously impact the amount time that your flies are presented in the water. I prefer to use a setup that allows at least three techniques/presentations on the same cast (stillwaters are a completely different matter).

Do you feel like you loose touch with the flies with the coil when fishing with it elevated?

There is a definitely a loss of touch when using coils - due to the absorption/dampening efect, but I personally find that they enhance my ability to visually detect some of the more subtle takes. They aren't the "end all be all" for nymphing, but can be very effective given the right circumstances...

[Nick Naclerio]

When I make my mono sighters I wrap a whole pen in colored mono and boil and then freeze. I then pull of the lenght that I want for my sighter and tie it in. It can just be tricky to tie knots with mono that wants to be wrapped in a circle. Once you sit down with it and get used to it its not so bad. I also make them somtimes with surgeons loops on the ends which is much easier but not legal for you comp fellas. Lately I've just been knoting the sighters into the leader though.

[Todd Oishi]

Blacklabel, try boiling a few coiled leaders so they have suficient length of straight mono at both ends for tying them into the leader (a few longer dowels, butterfly-style paper-clips and a celery-keeper work well for this application). Micro rings are by far the best solution, but unfortunately they aren't permitted for competitions.

I personally don't have too much trouble using with them, but agree that they can be a real pain to attach when your "under the gun" - or after you've spotted a very large trout...