Author Topic: Leader knot question as it pertains to fipps (Read 264 times)

Pat Brechbill · « **on:** August 06, 2011, 04:16:45 PM »

Guys, I'd like to pose a question on an idea I have. I currently use a long leader formula and am quite happy with it's performance. The only complaint I have is with the knots catching in the guides. I know you can put UV knot sense over it to smooth it out, but I was thinking of sliding small pieces of heat shrink tubes over it and heating it around the knot to smooth it out. Would this be legal per Fipps? Haven't read anything that addresses it to my knowledge. Thanks.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2011, 05:08:13 PM »

I'd probably allow it in any comp I was running as it is "fused" and taking for granted the material wasn't large enough to constitute a "floating device". But for that reason alone it might be banned at world level.

Mike Norton · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »

Pat
maybe you should post this question on TeamUSA facebook page an one of the members there might know..very interesting question though.
mike

Mike Norton · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2011, 07:01:38 PM »

dejon made a comment about a "floating device" but another thing to consider also is a " sinking device " too...just an observation not sure if there would really be that much of a factor to consider it as sinking

Pat Brechbill · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2011, 07:05:32 PM »

Thanks guys, I posted the question on Team USA facebook page and I'll let you all know what their response is.

Pat Brechbill · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2011, 07:14:17 PM »

Yea, not sure how to interpret this. Technically anything you add to your leader(ie knot sense) could be considered a floatant or sinking agent. I believe the rules state a sinking or floating device.

ARTICLE 27: COMPETITION LEADERS.
27.1. A single monofilament leader may be used, of any length.
27.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line.
27.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.

Alain Barthelemy · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2011, 08:36:55 PM »

I am certain heat shrink would be disallowed in FIPS-MOUCHE sanctioned events, and I can't understand why you would want to use it. Heat shrink would add a lot of undesirable weight to the leader.

When seated correctly, and when the tags are cut flush, a barrel knot forms a small cylinder with rounded edges, for everything less than about 25lb test. For larger diameter monofilament, make your barrel knots with only 4 turns per side. When the tippet diameter gets small (< 0.25mm), use Triple Surgeon's knots. If you are not satisfied with the knots, perhaps a softer type of copolymer (Kamou) will give you better performance. You may also consider using a rod with single-foot ring guides, as I find the knotted leaders pass through these guides more effectively.

Pat Brechbill · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2011, 09:52:05 PM »

Quote from: Alain Barthelemy on August 06, 2011, 08:36:55 PM

I am certain heat shrink would be disallowed in FIPS-MOUCHE sanctioned events, and I can't understand why you would want to use it. Heat shrink would add a lot of undesirable weight to the leader.

When seated correctly, and when the tags are cut flush, a barrel knot forms a small cylinder with rounded edges, for everything less than about 25lb test. For larger diameter monofilament, make your barrel knots with only 4 turns per side. When the tippet diameter gets small (< 0.25mm), use Triple Surgeon's knots. If you are not satisfied with the knots, perhaps a softer type of copolymer (Kamou) will give you better performance. You may also consider using a rod with single-foot ring guides, as I find the knotted leaders pass through these guides more effectively.

Alain, under what guideline would it be disallowed? Would they consider it a device? I don't think that it would any more weight than knot sense. Currently I use the Davy variation knot and it's pretty streamlined. I've had the same issue with blood knots catching on the guides. Thanks for your input.

Alain Barthelemy · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2011, 06:28:48 AM »

Loren told me FIPS-MOUCHE disallows the "drop" type indicators. These are the Siman-style devices where an angler coats closely-spaced knots with brightly-colored paint to serve as an indicator. I feel certain heat shrink covering a knot would get the same negative treatment, even if the knots were far apart.

I think it would be hard to heat the shrink tubing so that it fit tightly to the mono, without heating and weakening the mono itself.

Try again to make some really tight, clean barrel knots. Make sure when you wrap the leader sections, you are going in opposite directions and that the tags emerge at opposing right angles. When you tighten the knot, do so evenly and smoothly in one motion, while pulling the tag ends gently 180deg from each other. Try another kind of mono, or you could also try boiling (for 5 minutes), your favorite leader mono (Maxima Ultragreen gets very limp and soft with boiling). I am pretty sure you will grow to re-appreciate the barrel knot; I've gone back and forth on things like this over the years too.

Torrey tells me the Hardy/Greys copolymer material is also limp and soft direct from the spool, perhaps you can try that.

Pat Brechbill · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2011, 07:19:24 AM »

Quote from: Alain Barthelemy on August 07, 2011, 06:28:48 AM

Loren told me FIPS-MOUCHE disallows the "drop" type indicators. These are the Siman-style devices where an angler coats closely-spaced knots with brightly-colored paint to serve as an indicator. I feel certain heat shrink covering a knot would get the same negative treatment, even if the knots were far apart.

I think it would be hard to heat the shrink tubing so that it fit tightly to the mono, without heating and weakening the mono itself.

Try again to make some really tight, clean barrel knots. Make sure when you wrap the leader sections, you are going in opposite directions and that the tags emerge at opposing right angles. When you tighten the knot, do so evenly and smoothly in one motion, while pulling the tag ends gently 180deg from each other. Try another kind of mono, or you could also try boiling (for 5 minutes), your favorite leader mono (Maxima Ultragreen gets very limp and soft with boiling). I am pretty sure you will grow to re-appreciate the barrel knot; I've gone back and forth on things like this over the years too.

Torrey tells me the Hardy/Greys copolymer material is also limp and soft direct from the spool, perhaps you can try that.

Thanks for the advice Alain. I do know how to properly tie a barrel knot and I may replace my Davy knots with these to see if I notice a dramatic difference. I appreciate the advice on the monos. Currently I am using Cajun red mono and that's just because I was testing out leader ratios for better turnover. Now that I've come up with a leader that will nymph and cast dry/droppers 40', I guess it's time to look at the quality of the material I'm using. Team USA so far is stumped by this question though and hasn't yet given it a thumbs up or down yet. I will let you all know if they state differently. Again, thanks for all the input.

Mike Norton · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2011, 07:20:32 AM »

Alain has a point of the heat weakening the mono

Loren Williams · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2011, 10:56:22 AM »

At the youth worlds last year in Slovakia at the Captains meeting the FIPS representatives distinctly outlawed the drop indicators..I have no knowledge, nor have I asked since I do not use them, about adult events. I would imagine tubing applied to knots would be disallowed on either the device, mono-filament, or diameter constraints.

That said, I LOVE the creative thinking you guys are offering--keep it up! Our sport, and recreational anglers everywhere, can only benefit.

Before I competed, I learned to slip hollowed-out fly line onto a few of my leader knots to be used as indicators when nymphing or small dry fly fishing (spinners, trikes, ants). Not exactly heat shrink in that they certainly did not smooth knots, but they were very sensitive as indicators!

Pat Brechbill · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2011, 11:29:20 AM »

I'm concerned about the heats impact on the mono. It doesn't take a lot of heat to get it to shrink. Just trying to think out of the box a little. I've used various types of heat shrink during my career and that's why i thought of it for this application. If this isn't allowed, then is knot sense still okay to smooth out the knots? sorta has the same impact as the dropper indicator. Although, I just don't get where the advantage is in adding these things. I mean knots in two different colored sighters become a focal indicator so to speak. Thanks for all the feedback guys.