Author Topic: Drop indicators (Read 638 times)

Albert Mulhall · « **on:** December 28, 2011, 07:40:58 AM »

Hi Guys,

Great forum you have going here. I'm sure glad I found it. Nothing like this in Ireland. Looking forward to sharing some ideas with ye on competition techniques.

I have a question on the Drop Indicators the Czechs have developed for their comp fishing. I saw somewhere on another thread that they were banned at the Youths in Slovakia in 2010. Have they been banned fully by Fips-Mouche or was it just for that comp? Were they used at the World Seniors in Italy and the European Seniors in the Czech Republic this year?

I've used them a few times recreationally and found them great being very visual and you're straight into trout on the strike. I haven't fished them in comps as I'm still not convinced with them preferring straight coloured mono and the spiral indicators in particular as they give you that cushioning on the strike so you don't ping off on trout. If they are legal I'm definitely going to experiment with them more but if illegal for Fips-Mouche I'm not going to waste any time on them. I know guys over here have been using them this year in comps but I'm looking for a bit of clarity on whether they're legal or not.

By the way, are the Spiral indicators still legal for Fips-Mouche or is it just straight coloured mono now?

Thanks Albert

Chris Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:39:14 AM »

Welcome to the forum Albert!

Based strictly upon coversations with members of our National team, I'm under the impression that drop indicators are illegal. As a result, No one here is fishing them in comps.

Spiral indicators are legal, however. I've seen them used in several comps.

The difference? I'm guessing the drops add bouyancy and are thus considered suspension devices? Total speculation on my part.

Albert Mulhall · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2011, 10:34:23 AM »

Just what I thought Chris that's why I haven't put in too much time with the drop indicators as I couldn't see how they were legal. I thought I was maybe missing out as I know plenty of the Irish guys have been using them and have used them in qualifiers for the Irish Team.

I'll stick with the straight mono and the spirals then as no use getting used to the drop indicator when it can't be used at a Fips-Mouche level.

Chris Puchniak · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2011, 12:42:05 PM »

I'm not too sure on the specifics, but I believe some drop indicators and all coiled sighters are both still legal (the coiled sighters for the short - term, as there is always the discussion to make these illegal). From what my limited knowledge is, there legal and illegal ways to do a drop indicator. I have heard that applying glue on the knots as drops may make them illegal - but I haven't had a good explanation about this myself (I think if it is just knotted, it is completely ok). Yet I think drop indicators are being used by many anglers in Europe.

Hopefully someone with more informed knowledge wll chime in.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2011, 01:27:51 PM »

As with many details in the rules we are left to interpretation and trends set at Worlds.

However, I would second Smith's post.

Standard Drop Indicators are fips-mouche illegal as they clearly add floating strike devices to the leader.

Adding a modest amount of clear knot-sense to your knots I believe would be under the "grey line" and acceptable.

Spiral Indicators are still fips-mouche legal.

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:19:39 PM »

Here's a question, why are so many of the rules left up to interpretation? I don't know many world scale competitions where there is debate on what is, or is not breaking the rules, especially those that take the person's intent into consideration. I understand that fly fishing is constantly changing, but there needs to be alot more clarity in my opinion.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:14:49 PM »

They aren't left up to interpretation at the single event level. At the "World" level, as in the association that looks to guide global competitive fly fishing there is a constant natural discussion and evolution of the rules.

In fact, many if not all world scale competitions have governing bodies which are constantly amending, voting, and squabbling over what is, or is not breaking the rules. Everything from the type of ball being used to what constitutes the "game" itself. This last issue: what is "Fly Fishing?" is often where many of the rules and amendments arise.

As it pertains specifically to "drop indicators". Let us imagine for a moment that there were no rule governing the use of attachable floating strike indicator devices? Small "drop" dots of epoxy may create the battle line, but without this rule then one could use almost any kind of classic or progressive floats such as thingamabobbers or even 15gram balsa floats. Add in a handful of split shot, unlimited mono leaders (currently legal) and are you fly fishing or course fishing?

If you allowed Soccer players to pick the ball up and run... it would be Rugby.

Defining the sport is what much of this is about. And to that end it's not only good to know the rules but discuss them for the evolution... and preservation of the sport.

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:34:44 PM »

Quote from: Dejon Hamann on December 28, 2011, 09:14:49 PM

They aren't left up to interpretation at the single event level. At the "World" level, as in the association that looks to guide global competitive fly fishing there is a constant natural discussion and evolution of the rules.

In fact, many if not all world scale competitions have governing bodies which are constantly amending, voting, and squabbling over what is, or is not breaking the rules. Everything from the type of ball being used to what constitutes the "game" itself. This last issue: what is "Fly Fishing?" is often where many of the rules and amendments arise.

As it pertains specifically to "drop indicators". Let us imagine for a moment that there were no rule governing the use of attachable floating strike indicator devices? Small "drop" dots of epoxy may create the battle line, but without this rule then one could use almost any kind of classic or progressive floats such as thingamabobbers or even 15gram balsa floats. Add in a handful of split shot, unlimited mono leaders (currently legal) and are you fly fishing or course fishing?

If you allowed Soccer players to pick the ball up and run... it would be Rugby.

Defining the sport is what much of this is about. And to that end it's not only good to know the rules but discuss them for the evolution... and preservation of the sport.

I was asking because there are a lot of different threads asking if this or that application of x,y,z are legal, and to compound things further, I've seen differing opinions on the matter. All of which is understandable really. And most probably comes from new people to the sport, again understandable. I was just curious, as it appeared that there is much wiggle room within the rules as they stand. I have seen a lot of, if you have to ask then it is probably not legal. I couldn't disagree more, atleast through a newcomers eyes.

I'm just getting started down this path as you know Dejon, I'm just looking for clarity.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:52:16 PM »

Absolutely Daniel! Keep them coming. Questions are the best way to get up to speed in the sport and this is the place to field them.

Jason Baker · « **Reply #9 on:** December 29, 2011, 12:11:39 AM »

Also, if the rules were crystal clear, we'd have nothing to complain about....boring! :-)

As you may have noticed, I am into the Scotch tonight. (intentionally capitalized to display reverence)

Albert Mulhall · « **Reply #10 on:** December 29, 2011, 08:19:50 AM »

Still very unclear on whether these drop indicators are legal or not. What article are they contrary to as you can argue that you are not breaking any rules or infringements on any of the articles? I'm interested to see from anyone that competed in the Worlds or Europeans this year on whether any of the teams were using them as on looking at the articles I can't see definitively where they are illegal.

There is no mention in the rules that drop indicators are outlawed either so rather puzzling.

Article 27.1 A single monofilament leader may be used, of any length.
The drop indicator is built into the leader similar to the spiral indicator and coloured mono, the leader is not broken so it's ok on this rule.

Article 27.2 Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line.
Again I don't see where there is any infringements here as the leader will be tapered or level. Is it that by adding resin or paint to the knots that bulk is being added to the leader and thus seen to break the tapered or level leader rule. Knotted leaders are allowed but again there's is nothing in the rules to say that resin or paint can't be added to the knots. The resin/paint added would be very negligible and the reason for it being added to the knots is for visibility purposes not to build mass on the leaders or diverge away from a level or tapered leader.

Article 27.3 Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.
I have used these leaders occassionally, not in competitions, but they definitely don't make the leader float so it is not a floating device added to the leader. Nor is it a sinking device as the leader will sink anyway if left to drift with the water. The leader is kept off the water and tracked down the river, the drops are just for a visual effect so one can clearly see the leader in all light conditions.

Maybe some of the World Team members might be able to clarify the position on these indicators.

Mark Hanes · « **Reply #11 on:** December 29, 2011, 11:46:20 AM »

Everything I have understood they are considered a flotation device. You can get a similar result to what you are describing by adding knots to your siter. That would be legal no matter how the rules are interpreted.

Loren Williams · « **Reply #12 on:** December 30, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »

They were specifically outlawed in the 2010 Youth Worlds by FIPS, I was at the meeting (considered devices, if they do not float then they sink and vise versa).

Beyond that, I do not use them so I have little interest in where they may or may not fit within the rules.

Daniel: much of what you are seeing as far as rule complications deals with the incredible creativity of world level anglers. When a rule is written it may eventually get compromised simply due to advancements in technology. Also, rules may be modified to come in line with local regulation (number of flies, min size for example) or stream conditions (no egg imitations or fishing near redds during a spawning season). Issues are dealt with at Captain/competitor meetings, were all competitor questions can be clearly asked and answered.

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #13 on:** December 31, 2011, 02:48:57 PM »

Loren,

Thanks. I can definitely appreciate the depth which anglers will go with new products, new technology, even new uses for old stuff. And what you say about devices makes sense, in that it doesn't matter if it is floating, because if it isn't floating, then it IS a sinking device, as it is added weight, etc.

My problem, is that I like to have everything flushed out. My writing background persuades me to flush the complete idea out. The Fips Mouche rules seem to be a statement about different scenarios, whereby it is mentioned, but not completely expressed.

For example, reading this rule.

28.4 Weighting flies.

"Weighted flies are permitted, provided the weight is hidden within the dressing." It then goes on to mention beads and maximum bead size. And a clause that defines painting alone doesn't constitute a dressing.

My question is with the first statement. Does this mean that Copper Johns are illegal as the wire is additional weight, not hidden in the dressing?

What about hare's ear nymphs, or any fly that has wire ribbing? How far does it go? What about new materials such as fish skulls, or those clunky looking sculpin heads, on Rich Strolis meat head sculpin?

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #14 on:** December 31, 2011, 02:52:32 PM »

Also, 27.3 "Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader"

Does this mean that greasing the leader is illegal? What about Curly Q sighters?

The heart of the matter is what their definition of "devices" is, and how they are applied.

I'm sure this must lead to some endless scenarios, but it is confusing at least to a layman like myself.

Albert Mulhall · « **Reply #15 on:** December 31, 2011, 04:05:37 PM »

Quote from: Daniel Podobed on December 31, 2011, 02:52:32 PM

Also, 27.3 "Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader"

Does this mean that greasing the leader is illegal? What about Curly Q sighters?

The heart of the matter is what their definition of "devices" is, and how they are applied.

I'm sure this must lead to some endless scenarios, but it is confusing at least to a layman like myself.

The rules depend on the interpretation and I guess everyone has a different interpretation Daniel. But that's the problem and this is why all these innovations are coming in because the rules are not clear cut. I would still say that the drop indicators are not a sinking device because the leader would sink anyway and they are not being used to ensure that the leader sinks, but then again someone else has interpreted it differently. I thought the Czechs were using them in comps but then again maybe not or if they are it's a different dimension on them to bypass the rules.

Greasing the curly q is definitely illegal in my mind anyway as it is a device to ensure that the leader stays and floats on the surface.

I guess that's what makes the sport so fascinating seeing where it goes from here and what other innovations that may come into play.

Loren Williams · « **Reply #16 on:** December 31, 2011, 05:34:35 PM »

I think I heard that floatant was outlawed in the Finland WFFC but I am not certain. I have learned to prepare for the worst....I will fish without a sighter from time to time, "just in case."

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #17 on:** December 31, 2011, 07:20:56 PM »

Dan,

One of the most important phrases in the fips-mouche regulations comes right at the beginning of the document:
"If there is any doubt or dispute over any aspect of the Competition Rules, they will be resolved by interpreting the spirit of the Rules."

In this, I believe they understood that without hiring a panel of patent lawyers and linguists it's virtually impossible to write a rules document which "covers all the bases."

- Copper Johns are widely known as illegal.
- Ribbing is allowed.
- Cone heads, sculpin heads, and other "weighted Exposed" fly elements are illegal. One 4.0mm Bead or less is allowed.