Author Topic: Sage Z-Axis 10' 4 wt vs Echo Shadow 11' 4wt opinions (Read 4628 times)

Bob Lux · « **on:** February 28, 2011, 02:16:55 PM »

Okay, I have a conundrum. I need to get a comp rod, but I am torn on what to get. I am really liking the Sage Z Axis 10ft 4 weight. Unfortunately, I cannot find a shop close enough to try it out, so I am limited to internet reviews and everything on the net is true. The thing I worry about is that the rod is $700. I have seen that Echo carries a rod called the Shadow that is a 11ft 4 weight for $329.99. I've read the reviews that the 4wt Shadow is a bit heavy, but I haven't seen too many reviews on the Sage. I know Sage rods are known for their quality, but I don't want to drop $700 on a rod that isn't what I expected or doesn't fit the conditions I am fishing. I'd like to have a rod that can be kind of universal where I can go heavy when needed or lighten up. Common sense tells me to go cheaper for now, but the reviews on the Shadow are that you don't really want to go light or fish dries with it. I don't want to go to a 3wt since I think I will need to go heavier more than I will go light. Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong rods all together. Thanks for any input.

Jim Frazier · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:27:39 PM »

Bob i never heard anyone comment on a 10 nymphing rod casting small drys really well. I think many will get the job done but not ideally but i could be wrong. Mark ferring has the hardy greys 10 5wt and certainly can throw heavy with it and we fished to sporadic risers on a fairly big stream (oil creek ) mark was throwing midges 50-60 ' and doing well for this time of year. I have a orvis access 10' 5wt and i was throwing a dry dropper and caught fish also. Was it smiles and grins for both of us that day ? YES but not from the way the rods were throwing small stuff but they got the job done. I Know guys on here have multiple 10' rods and they are far better able to comment on the subject than i am but i hope this may help a little.

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:28:34 PM »

Tough to say. As you've seen in the other thread this show down has a lot to do with personal preference.

IMO, the Shadow you want to match up against the 10'4wt Z is the 10.5ft3wt. Btw,the only thing "3wt" about that rod is the tip. The rest is more of a 4/5. I'm a Shadow man myself and I've fished both.

Arron Varga · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:54:39 PM »

I would second Dejon...of the Shadows the 10' 6" is a great rod. Also it was designed for Euro nymphing versus the Sage Z Axis was not. The z-axis is a great casting rod...<insert your opinion here>

I have fished both rods and fished and tried a lot of different czech nymph rods everything Greys and Hardys to Guideline to Maxias etc.

I would put the Echos down as one of the better rods I have tried for Euro nymphing techniques and certianly I think one of the best for the money.

Also the way I would look at it, you could get almost two echos for the price of one z-axis in which case I would get the 10' 3wt and the 10' 6" 3wt.

Jim Frazier · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:14:27 PM »

I would get the 10' 3wt and the 10' 6" 3wt. Thats interesting , why not the 10 3wt and 10' 4wt ?

Todd Oishi · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:30:00 PM »

Dejon is spot on with his remark about personal preferences. I on the other hand go in an entirely different direction. It's all about testing a few rods and discouvering what works best for your particular style and approach to fishing...

Bob Lux · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:31:10 PM »

Thanks everyone. It sounds like the Echo is a better choice on all fronts.

Mike Wisniewski · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2011, 07:47:20 PM »

I would like clarification as to what makes a great rod. My favorite rod is a 9ft b2x 5 wt. With this rod I can detect more subtle takes than any other rod and can fire a dry fly 60 ft with no problem. The only problem is that it is 9ft. I bought the b2x 10ft 4 wt and it became more difficult to detect strikes. It seems that the 10ft 4 wt was less stiff, less respondent than the the 5 wt. It seemed that the tip on the 5 wt was stiffer. That being said I sold the 10ft and I am too looking at the z axis 4wt 10ft or 5wt 10ft.

So when folks say that the echo is a great rod, why? What does it excel at? Why a 3wt vs a 4wt vs 5wt? I think I want a rod that when I cast it, the tip will lock into place and not wobble be very much.

Thanks

Mike

Arron Varga · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2011, 10:23:27 PM »

Like that has come up in other discussions it depends on the fly fisherman and the application for the what makes a great rod. To each their own otherwise there would not be so many different rods and manufaturers.

But what makes the Echo rods good? If you are looking for a Euro Nymphing rod then I would argue these are an excellent choice. There are better rods but they cost twice as much money and hard to get here in North America.

They were designed from the ground up specifically for Euro nymphing techniques which are not really about blasting 60' of fly line out. They were designed for short line nymphing and french nymphing techniques.

So for me what do I like about them. First off there is the soft tip which loads under the wieght of my nymphs when short lining. The light rod, a 3wt, combined with a soft tip under load, I think gives me better contact with my nymphs for strike detection.

The soft tip also helps protect the fine tippet I use, often 6x and smaller on strikes and it also helps from bouncing smaller fish which can be a problem on faster heavier rods.

Second, you can quickly reach beyond the tip when casting and still throw a decent cast with these rods. Will they cast as well as the North American rods that are designed for casting, no but they still get the job done when needed.

For French nymphing I think a longer and lighter rod, 10' 6" 3wt helps with the line control when handling long leaders over 20'.

The preference I and recomendation I have come up wth is based on my preference for rods which leans towards slower rods designed more for fishing then casting. I would rather be tactical and try to approach a fish to a comforatable casting distance then try and blast a 60' cast which on the rivers I fish I have never needed to do.

But as stated many times there really is no right or wrong answer for which rod is the perfect rod. Fish the rods you comforatble with and you will catch more fish.

Lance Egan · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2011, 02:39:51 AM »

Bob,

As you can see there are many different opinions on rods. There always is, and likely always will be.

My .02 cents:

Of rods available today (2/28/11) the 10 foot 4 weight Sage Z-Axis is my first choice for most stream tactics. Exceptions would be large streamers, or consistent catches of 22+ inch fish. This rod handles most streamers quite well, but larger patterns (double bunny) are easier to toss on a 5 or 6 weight. For most situations I find the 4100-4 Z-axis to be my fav. It handles dries, dry/dropper, dry/dropper/dropper, Czech or French nymphing, small to medium weight streamers and is even a decent indicator rod. Since it handles all these techniques very well it continues to be my confidence rod due to its versitility.

I've own and have fished the Echo's, Cabelas CZN and other 10 footers from Scott, T&T and Loon. I would classify all of these rods as good for the price, but not top of the class. I've also played with the original Greys streamflex (I don't own these) and they are too soft for my liking (I haven't tried the XF2's). They are decent long leader rods, but I don't find them as versatile.

That said, I'm always on the lookout for the next best rod, and when something better comes along I'll gladly upgrade.

Just another opinion, so take it for what it is worth...

Bob Lux · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2011, 10:27:51 AM »

Thanks guys for all the info. I am leaning more towards a Euro style rod, so that is why I was really looking at the Echo.

Alain Barthelemy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2011, 06:39:22 PM »

Since I'm sort of sitting around today anyway, I whipped this up. This could be done much, much better, similar to George Anderson's rod shootout, but for now, I give you a European Nymphing Rod Shootout:

All these scores are based on my subjective opinion, but the results came out how I thought. These are all rods that I have or used to have. I rated the Echo pretty low, but I communicated all my detailed thoughts about swing weight and so on for this rod to Pete and Steve a while ago. I did not like the Echo PE; it was among the most tip-heavy things I ever held.

In the streamer category, I am talking about fishing dual slumpbusters in high water on 3X; euro nymphing with a streamer tandem. For dry-dropper, I am talking about fishing a 7.5ft 2X leader with a single size 18 weighted fly off of 6X, about 3ft down. For French/Spanish, I am referring to methods where the weight of the fly has little to do with the cast (the leader carries the energy). For Polish/Czech, I am talking about lob casting with heavy flies and short leaders, then following the drift with the rod tip close to the water. You get the idea.

As expected, our favorite rods came out best. The 10-4 Z-Axis really does score best as an all-around rod, but since I am heavily biased towards French nymphing, I really enjoy the rod in the second row.

Bob Lux · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2011, 09:44:52 AM »

Very cool info, thanks.

IHPGFY · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2011, 06:05:33 PM »

Like anything it's ones own opinion, as I have said before everyone has a different taste in reference to gear, espescially rods for that matter. So my only question is this, you have extensively fished all of these rods for a prolonged period of time and deduced through your trials and tribulations this comparison chart? I am kind of surprised to see where your Loop Opti fell on this chart as you spoke so highly of it last year. Interesting chart to say the least.

Alain Barthelemy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2011, 06:33:48 PM »

The chart is just my subjective opinion, it has no value beyond that. Just trying to help Bob pick out a new rod. All of you could make the same chart and it would be equally valid. I think the concept of the "shootout" is excellent, but its execution will always be flawed unless many anglers weigh in. Isn't it great we are all so passionate about our gear?

Dejon Hamann · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2011, 07:50:19 PM »

You know what would be fun is to get 10 of us together for a weekend, develop a set of tests, and really construct a comprehensive chart. Have "subjective" tests and more "scientific" tests. For instance, set the rods up in a holder, at the same angle, pull the tip to a certain point, release, and then via digital video record actual characteristics such as dampening, recovery, flex, etc.

Dave Wiese · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2011, 08:16:25 AM »

Dejon, when are you going to do the rod test? I'm in the market for a 10' 3 or 4wt rod and would look forward to your results.

Jim Guida · « **Reply #17 on:** April 02, 2011, 11:01:49 PM »

i have the z in 10' 4wt thru 6wt and love all of them the 4 is IMHO one of the finest fishing tools you can own.

Lance Egan · « **Reply #18 on:** April 02, 2011, 11:53:59 PM »

Jim,

Agreed, all those Z's are great. I do prefer the 9'6'' 6 weight over the 10 footer, but otherwise the 10's are my first choice.

Chris Smith · « **Reply #19 on:** April 03, 2011, 07:57:48 PM »

Not to hijack the thread, but did Sage make the XP in either/both 9'6" or 10' 6 WT and does anyone have one gathering dust?

Kaleb Snyder · « **Reply #20 on:** April 03, 2011, 11:20:02 PM »

I know they did make it in the 10 foot model.I saw them on ebay for sale a couple of times.

John Killinger · « **Reply #21 on:** April 09, 2011, 06:38:34 PM »

Has anyone tried the Sage Z axis for dry dropper fishing? Wondering how it works for this method. Did some dry dropper with my 3wt Streamflex today and I had to work at it to get any distance. I think I pulled my shoulder in the process.

Lance Egan · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2011, 01:02:34 AM »

John,

Yes, dry dropper with the 10 foot 4 weight is great. Check out some of the early posts in this thread to see other opinions.

Fred Dewees · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2011, 08:51:30 AM »

I am just getting into the comp style fishing and love my Sage 99 4 wt rod . It is light weight and has performed every task I gave it so far with good results. I wouldn't over look this rod if you are going to spend the money to get a z-axis.