Question for Loren- fly design

[Torrey Collins]

I was going to PM Loren Williams about this, but thought it would be more informative to ask on the board where all can benefit from his reply.

For those of you who don't know, Loren has a very nice site- flyguysoutfitting.com, with some of the best fly tying tutorials on the net.  He has some very cool patterns on there, some of which I can personally verify crush fish, including browns & rainbows in streams that get pounded with heavy fishing pressure.

Here's my question for Loren:
You have two semi-new patterns on your site, the Stud (http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/stud.html) and the Baron (http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/baron.html), and they both intrigue me- something about their "fishiness" and simplicity has me curious to know more.  While you do talk a little about how you came up with both patterns, I have more questions.  What was your though process in designing these two flies?  Curious about stuff like what made you pick the color schemes, materials, and where/when you find them most effective, etc.  Trying to get into your head, so to speak.  You seem to be very good at designing flies, and I think it would help others on here when they try to come up with flies to solve problems for their own particular situations/problems if they understood the steps you go through in designing a new pattern.  Thanks in advance.

[Loren Williams]

Hi Torrey!

I like this kind of discussion.  I am actually developing a presentation to hopefully take around.  I'm not professing to be any kind of guru--it's just something I think is cool and I think it's good and refreshing dialogue.

The Baron is a stripped-down version of my Bead Head Biot nymph.  Basically I just kept omitting or simplifying so now it's back to a very PT-ish pattern.  I really like the profile.  Biot bodies are durable, easy to tie with, cheap and slice through the water like hot butter.  The little bit of sheen offered, the durability and ease of tying are all features I prefer over the standard PT.  It's proven itself everywhere I've fished it-so I have a TON of confidence in it.

The Stud-that little puppy is my new pet.  I wanted a light bodied nymph to use where the stream bottom was lighter than average, and to contrast a dark pattern on my cast.  Beyond that, I really wanted a pattern that could get that gooey appearance that I observe when I look at crap I pump out of fish throats, or flip rocks.  In addition, I wanted a bit of "oohh yeah" to set it apart-like a real hot blond among good looking blonds.  That pattern took some time to get it where I wanted it-and I am in love.  In my opinion, the worse thing you can do is to overdub the fly--it is a touch-dubbed fly.  I really want to see the thread body underneath when it's wet.

When I set out to create or modify I first need a problem to solve.  Usually I open my box in search for something and it's not there-so I make it.  I first ID the hook shape and size range.  Next, I envision a general profile and color scheme.  Often I want a feature that I figure is a bit unexpected to the fish--the "ketchup on the french fry."  From there I start tying prototypes and fishing them.  Tweaking and fishing.  When i get a winner I publish it on my site--as much for my own use down the road as it is for sharing with anyone who may be interested.

I am not imitative..I want flies that can do as much as possible across as many variables as possible.  The subtle things I do reflect my confidence triggers and the flies absolutely need to work for me (easy and cheap to tie, durable, fishy, and well performing) not against me. 

In general, when I fish I want my flies to get eaten.  This means they must get chosen by the fish over the hundreds of real food items they see.  I find great fun in trying to design flies that accomplish that task-once in a while I do OK.

[Domenick Swentosky]

The Baron is bad ass. It works very well for me.  Ditto on The Hoover.  Sweet, sweet flies.  I have yet to tie The Stud, but I finally got a bag of the Trilobal the other day. 

I've caught a few on an Olive Baron that I tied a couple weeks ago.  Olive Biot, Siman Peacock in Bronze, Black bead. 

One question for Loren or anyone who ties these: does the dubbing on yours start to wear off or thin out after a while?  Mine do and I end up stripping the rest off and re-dubbing.  Seems that without the wingcase the dubbing just kind of flies off after a while.  Not all of it, just some.  Not the biggest deal, just thought I'd ask.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Mike Norton]

Those are very interesting patterns and look pretty easy to tie....Thanks for sharing

[Loren Williams]

Domenick:  Two options.

1.  I did not show it on the tutorial but I often touch dub the Siman.  Cut it up a bit into 1/2" or so fibers.  Wax the thread with LOON HI TACK SWAX or OVERTONS WONDERWAX, Wpsi, Orvis and the other crap is not tacky enough.  Loosely touch the dubbing to the thread allowing the wax to grab what it will.  Spin the thread to form a chenille then wind it on.

2.  After you wrap the dubbing as applied in the standard fashion, go through it with some thread wraps before you whip finish.

My flies are intended to last until many fish, or the bottom eventually win.  In the 2007 Nationals on the Big T I fiinished with the same two Barons I started with, 9 on the sheet and probably another 9 that did not measure.

I fish a few of Egan's patters too and his are equally effective, durable and easy to tie.  Traits I DEMAND in my flies.

[Frank Muscente]

Loren has an awsome site. I'm new to fly tying and it gives great detail and makes tying much easier. 

[Tim Long]

Frank, I agree.  Thank you Loren!

[Joe Kinlen]

Yes, Loren has a great site,,i go there often, so much great information. 1 more question for you Loren, if u dont mind, will you be speaking at '''west branch angler'' on 4/16/10 ? .  If so, is it open to anyone to attend?. Do we need to oder tickets?. Thank you,,joe

[Loren Williams]

Joe,

Yes, I will be at the WBR Friday for the bulk of the day.  Sam has asked me to speak on nymphing both in the classroom and on the water.  Should be a good time!

I don't think you need tickets...I'd check their website or give them a call to be certain.

[Lance Egan]

Torrey,
Thanks for an interesting thread.  Much can be learned from the thought process of a great angler!

Loren,

Your patterns look great.  The stud looks like a mini red fox squirrel with some new, unique materials incorporated.  The Baron is beautifully simple as well.

Working in retail, I constantly tell customers not to worry so much about exact matches of each insect, and encourage them to work on presentation.  Usually this advice is followed by a doubtful stare, but I'm a big believer in a few confidence flies, and proper presentations.  Loren's patterns achieve this balance.

[Mark Hanes]

I agree with the idea of presentation.  Most of the time the flies just need to look like something that the trout would eat. 

If you ever worked in retail then you know that the flies that catch fisherman and much different then the top fish catchers.  I can't tell you how many times I have been asked by guys what are you catching fish on.   The most common response is "Thats it?".  I know myself i fish harder with flies that are easy to tie and hold up well.  If I loose a few so what! 

Great stuff guys!

[Domenick Swentosky]

I know myself i fish harder with flies that are easy to tie and hold up well.  If I loose a few so what! 

Well said, Mark.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick

[Lance Egan]

I'm with you Mark, if it takes an angler half an hour (or more) to tye a fly, they are less likely to cast it where the fish live.  Near the bottom, under overhanging brush, around a submerged rock or near a weed bed.  All these areas are fish holders, and fly traps...

A simple tye that catches fish is FAR better than a lame overdone pattern with "bin appeal".

[Torrey Collins]

Yeah I would have to agree that most of the time, when trout feed opportunistically, it's 90% presentation, and 10% fly pattern.  The actual pattern takes on the most significance when there is an abundance of a particular food item- like during a heavy hatch.  Then the pattern can become somewhat critical, although the way you present it remains equally important.

[Torrey Collins]

Loren, another question for you regarding the bead color on these two patterns.  I noticed you use a gold bead on both, and from looking at other flies you do, it seems like copper is a favorite of yours (mine too).  What made you choose gold, and do you vary the bead color on them?  I tend to feel that in heavily pressured rivers with relatively clear water, that gold beads can kinda sound the alarm bell, especially when a ton of people fish the majority of their patterns with gold beads.  Overexposure so to speak.  What are your thoughts on that?  I also find myself using a lot of black painted (not black nickel) beads for the reason stated above.

[Loren Williams]

Good question Torrey and I a not certain I have a clue what goes through the pea-sized brain of a trout.  For that reason I tie many of my patterns with a bunch of bead colors.

I like copper for tannin rivers, but gold sees most use for me.  I seem to go up and down with regard to "does gold spook fish."  I think it may matter more with fly patterns used very commonly on the water you are fishing.  Local knowledge as Pete pointed out.

In short, bead color-in my opinion and when I design flies-is pretty ambiguous. Most likley when I did the tutorial I had gold beads up on the desk

[Torrey Collins]

So you are saying you vary the bead colors on those two patterns?  I think the gold bead "blends" well with the tan body on the Stud, and a copper bead always seems to go well on brown nymphs, I'm going to tie some Barons with copper beads, my first batch of them was with gold as per your tutorial- got a nice 17" holdover rainbow o the Farmington on that fly in the first few minutes it got wet.  I agree with what you said about copper in tannin stained waters.

[Loren Williams]

Torrey:  Yep!  I tie the flies with a variety of beads--even lucent.  Gold and copper get used the most, but I do not limit myself to just those two.

However,  I have not fully convinced myself that bead color matters all that much beyond angler confidence aside from very pressured fish.

[Nick Naclerio]

I'm not fully convinced that the flies even matter beyond angler confidence.

[Loren Williams]

True dat!

I'm not fully convinced that the flies even matter beyond angler confidence.

[Tim Long]

Nick I couldn't agree more.  The more I fish and read, the more I am convinced that presentation combined with confidence make up 99% of the game.  1% might get devoted to size and color.

[Dejon Hamann]

I definitely agree with this sentiment... BUT there are those days! This weekend was one of em'  

Highly pressured wild trout will especially turn off of hotspots and bright beads... I hate my frenchies right now

[Mark Hanes]

Yeah but I am just blown away by the fact that the hot beaded BWO was really hooking me up with pressured trout on Spring Creek. 

On a side note my confidence in the Rubber Legs Golden Stone you tie up is still sky high for me.

[Dejon Hamann]

I guess I should add:

Highly pressured, cold system shut down, wild trout...    Much different then highly pressured, actively feeding, wild trout... like on Spring, eh?

Yeah, that stone is still a top producer. I've tried it in black, brown, and green, but Tan is the best. I do think that variegated pack you found and the coffee color might be good though!

[Domenick Swentosky]

Nick I couldn't agree more.  The more I fish and read, the more I am convinced that presentation combined with confidence make up 99% of the game.  1% might get devoted to size and color.

Wow -- 1%.  I think that's taking it a little too far.  Presentation is most important.  No question.  But part of that presentation is being reasonable with the pattern.   

I guess I'm just saying that I bet I could give you a group of flies to fish with for a couple days that wouldn't catch half as many fish as a group of reasonable patterns for the stream and conditions. 

I consider size to be especially important at times.

Good discussion.

Enjoy the day.
Domenick