Fips Leader Construction

[Brandon Matthews]

I have a quick question. I was reviewing the Fips-Mouche rules and it stated that your leader has to be constructed so it is tapered. So here is my question. I use a slinky for a sighter and it is made from 30 lb flo. yellow mono. so does that mean I have to have butt section of leader 30 lb or greater?

Also, I use a blood knot to connect my butt section to my slinky and then use a double surgeons knot to connect my tippet material straight to my slinky. Is this a good method of connecting the tippet to my sighter? How do you guys connect your tippet to your sighters? Any ideas will greatly help.

Thanks guys.

[Dejon Hamann]

I have a quick question. I was reviewing the Fips-Mouche rules and it stated that your leader has to be constructed so it is tapered. So here is my question. I use a slinky for a sighter and it is made from 30 lb flo. yellow mono. so does that mean I have to have butt section of leader 30 lb or greater?

Yes.  More specifically an equal or greater diameter then your slinky.  The breaking strength of sed line could vary.

Also, I use a blood knot to connect my butt section to my slinky and then use a double surgeons knot to connect my tippet material straight to my slinky. Is this a good method of connecting the tippet to my sighter? How do you guys connect your tippet to your sighters? Any ideas will greatly help.

I use the same.  And on occasion a stop knot.

Sounds like you're zeroing in! 

[Brandon Matthews]

Thanks Dejon...another quick question....where do you get your flo. mono from...i was just lucky to have a little laying around. But I would like to switch from flo. yellow to a flo. orange. Any ideas?

Thanks

[Nick Naclerio]

Suffix seige in Neon Tagerine. Thats what I use. Love it works great. Hold coils very well.

[Dejon Hamann]

Ssssh, don't tell anyone: BiColor Strike Indicator: http://wflies.com/Tippets.html

[Jim Frazier]

make your own out of 2 colors of amnesia nail knotted with knot sense , works for me , mark ferringer told me of this trick

[Brandon Matthews]

Hey thanks everyone for your advice...I'm going to have to look into these....oh and Dejon those bi-color sighters look awesome....will definitely have to try them out!

[Chris Smith]

Like Dejon, I use the bi-color indicators, although I normally acquire mine from Jan in the Czech republic.

http://www.siman.cz

Don't forget that you are only allowed one loop in your entire system.  Some guys keep the loop on their fly line and tie the butt section of the leader directly to the loop. 

Give it some thought, however.  There's a more advantageous place to put it (in my opinion).

[Dejon Hamann]

Give it some thought, however.  There's a more advantageous place to put it (in my opinion).

I'm thinking, thinking, thinking.  Nope - it's not coming to me.  Any hints?

[Chris Smith]

Let's just say you should put some knot sense on any perfection loops you tie with that sighter material. 

[Dejon Hamann]

Gotcha. Interesting, might have to give that a go.

[Mark Ferringer]

Frazier, that coily construction props goes to G. Daniel.  He showed me that.  The first time I fished it was with Dejon, and I caught some fish, but it wasn't for me.  I love the straight sighter.  D, I know you like it and it works well for you (very well!).  I like a straight sighter.  I use the curly only for the lowest of low water conditions, and it works well (floating it).  George showed me several different materials and amnesia held the best coil.   

[Lance Egan]

Keep in mind a loop is ONLY (fips) legal to use to connect fly line to a leader.  It is not allowed farther down the leader.
See 27.2 below:


ARTICLE 27: COMPETITION LEADERS.
27.1. A single monofilament leader may be used, of any length.
27.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line.
27.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.

[Dejon Hamann]

Dam you Lance! I thought we were onto something there    Good catch. 

[Paul Bourcq]

Ive been fishing a straight up 8 pound Mono leader to my sighter or curly or whatever.  Just pulled off thirty feet or so. Works nice.  Still have a bunch of digressive and progressive frankenstein leaders from years past.  They have times they shine. CLately I have my regular pink mono leader and my super stealth mono leader with clear curlies and or black sighters for extra spooky fish.  Not sure if im moving bacwards or forward but have had my best year to date.

[Chris Smith]

Keep in mind a loop is ONLY (fips) legal to use to connect fly line to a leader.  It is not allowed farther down the leader.
See 27.2 below:


ARTICLE 27: COMPETITION LEADERS.
27.1. A single monofilament leader may be used, of any length.
27.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line.
27.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.

My question...how can you connect a leader to a fly line with only a single loop in the leader?

I remember an extensive conversation about this in a prior thread.  I thought the ruling above would permit loop to loop connections between line and leader, but was told this was not the case.

In the case of that thread, the popular (and perhaps correct) interpretation was that the line could have a loop and you could tie onto that loop.

But given that this section of the rules is about leaders...does that open up room for interpretation?

I interpreted the above ruling as no loop to loop connections between leader and line...not a ruling on where the one loop can be placed. The cotinuous taper might be an issue, however.

I'll go with the wisdom of Tood and Lance on this one, but a question arises?  In the case of unclear interpretations due to the wording of the rules, who decides what is and isn't permitted?  Is it the controller?

[Dejon Hamann]

Chris, I agree with you; it doesn't make much sense.  I think they were trying to say something like: "A single loop may be used only at the terminal end of a fly line."  And yes, that would seem more appropriate in the "Lines" section.   Like so man things in the Fips-Rules it seems like they'd do well to hire a linguist and a patent attorney   I'd really like to know though what some people were doing to necessitate the rule  But looking at it I'd have to say Lance's interpretation is spot on.

I'll go with the wisdom of Tood and Lance on this one, but a question arises?  In the case of unclear interpretations due to the wording of the rules, who decides what is and isn't permitted?  Is it the controller?

I think it comes down to general consensus, which is regional, and always that catch all phrase in the very beginning of the rules: "If there is any doubt or dispute over any aspect of the Competition Rules, they will be resolved by interpreting the spirit of the Rules."

[Chris Smith]

I agree, both on the unclear language and on Lance's interpretation.

Regardless, tying a perfection loop at the end of your sighter is great for practice.  It enables you to quickly swap out the tippet below without eating away at your sighter. 

You could also use the micro-rings which are very popular in Europe.

[Jim Frazier]

are micro rings legal ? i am not competing but thats what i use and just improve clinch my fluoro to it

[Chris Smith]

Unfortunately, no.

[Lance Egan]

Paul, If you are fishing straight 8# mono to your sighter, your sighter needs to be the same or thinner diameter than the 8# mono to be fips legal.  If you aren't worried about being fips legal, forget my previous line

Chris and Dejon,
As I read that rule it states that LEADERS can have one loop used ONLY to connect to the fly line.  Keep in mind this rule is focusing on leaders rather than fly lines, so the single loop listed is specified for the leader.  Thus a fly line with a welded loop or whipped loop can be connected to a leader using a loop in each.  I think the rule very clearly states where the loop can be when it says:  "A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line."

If anglers are not worried about learning fips rules than lots of tinkering can be done to achieve different results with loops, connections, diameters etc...  As mentioned, micro rings are handy, but not fips legal.

I've really enjoyed the fips rules.  When I was first introduced to them I thought they were a bunch of limiting lame rules that didn't allow one to "really" fish.  Now I realize how much more effective it is to fish within the rules and have a lot of fun trying to master the techniques to maximize catches.

[Dejon Hamann]

As I read that rule it states that LEADERS can have one loop used ONLY to connect to the fly line.  Keep in mind this rule is focusing on leaders rather than fly lines, so the single loop listed is specified for the leader.  Thus a fly line with a welded loop or whipped loop can be connected to a leader using a loop in each.

Interesting take.  If true, this would resolve a lot of headache for quite a few anglers.  Could we get a confirmation on this from some of the other guys with World experience?

I've really enjoyed the fips rules.  When I was first introduced to them I thought they were a bunch of limiting lame rules that didn't allow one to "really" fish.  Now I realize how much more effective it is to fish within the rules and have a lot of fun trying to master the techniques to maximize catches.

I couldn't agree more Lance.  Once I found them laborious, now I think they are the reason this is so intriguing.  One interesting side-note is we're starting to allow "non fips" anglers to compete in TL comps. They can "win" the comp, but won't get points for the leader board. It's a great way to get new guys interested in competition and still allow them to use their old methods.  Almost without fail, the fips guys win though

[Chris Smith]

Paul, If you are fishing straight 8# mono to your sighter, your sighter needs to be the same or thinner diameter than the 8# mono to be fips legal.  If you aren't worried about being fips legal, forget my previous line

Chris and Dejon,
As I read that rule it states that LEADERS can have one loop used ONLY to connect to the fly line.  Keep in mind this rule is focusing on leaders rather than fly lines, so the single loop listed is specified for the leader.  Thus a fly line with a welded loop or whipped loop can be connected to a leader using a loop in each.  I think the rule very clearly states where the loop can be when it says:  "A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line."

If anglers are not worried about learning fips rules than lots of tinkering can be done to achieve different results with loops, connections, diameters etc...  As mentioned, micro rings are handy, but not fips legal.

I've really enjoyed the fips rules.  When I was first introduced to them I thought they were a bunch of limiting lame rules that didn't allow one to "really" fish.  Now I realize of fun trying to master the techniques to maximize catches.

When I first read the rule, I interpreted it as you have above...the single loop in the leader was allowed for the purpose of connecting to the welded loops now present in many fly lines.

But I've been told by several anglers that this is not the case.

So I've been exploring variations ever since. 

[John Killinger]

What knot is used to connect the tippet to the sighter? Is it a double surgeons knot? Reason I ask is because I use a loop on the sighter,it's a quick way of connecting tippet. Wondering what you comp dudes use for connecting the thicker sighter to thinner tippet?

[Todd Oishi]

John, I personally prefer to use a blood knot.

Chris, I have been told various opinions from several competitors and sector judges regarding this issue. The "loop to loop" terminology, when referring to the joining of a leader's loop to the loop on a fly line, seems to confuse the issue, as the rule clearly states the use of "a single loop". Look at the rule and you'll see what I mean:
"A single loop may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line."
No where does it mention a second loop that is a part of the fly line, or a loop to loop connection...

I personally tie all of my leaders directly to the loop, so as to avoid a debate with my controllers and fellow competitors, and to avoid the possibility of a penalty or disqualification if the sector judge or jury (if it were to go that far) doesn't agree with the interpretation of this rule.

For me personally, in a case such as this, the slight gain is not worth the potential risk!