Author Topic: Technique (Read 1485 times)

Brandon Matthews · « **on:** May 04, 2011, 10:51:46 AM »

I've dedicated this spring and summer to truly work on nothing but technique. Both in tying and in fishing. I've started with the Czech style of fishing and tying and in the last couple of weekends I've learned a few things that seem to really help my Czech nymphing.

First tying. I've noticed from looking at a ton of czech nymph pictures and watching a ton of demos and instructional videos that czech and polish nymphs are thin and lightly dressed. So I made the switch to flat sticky back lead and started to be really conscious about how I dubbed my czechs. Also, I really payed close attentions to how I formed the underbody's on my czechs and especially my polish woven nymphs. And what I found out from fishing these lightly dressed flies are my catch rate went up! I started catching fish and fish in pretty good numbers. I believe the slimmer profile helps the flies fall through the water column much faster and I've found that I can fish much lighter flies but still get the depth I need.

My second revelation was during fishing. I found that when I was casting a lot of times I was trying to reach to far out and I was letting my sighter fall on the water surface and doing a lot of line control. Again, I was doing some research on the technique and watching some videos and saw that the guys in the video were 1.) fishing a lot closer and 2.) not letting the sighter touch the water. So I while I was fishing I focused on not letting my sighter fall on the water and fishing a lot closer approximately only 9-12 feet out. And what I've found is that the majority of my fish are taking my flies in the first 2-4 feet of the drift and how I found this out is by not letting the sighter hit the water, basically stopping my rod tip high, it seems I come in contact with my flies a lot faster and in turn I've been catching those fish that have been taking my flies in the first few feet of the drift. Plus, by fishing at a closer distance it takes 3 times as long to fish a run and I've found that I'm picking up twice or even 3 times as many fish as I normally would.

Here are just two examples of how having better technique can make a world of difference. I hope for you guys that read this that it might help you out in some way and I'm sure that a lot of you guys already know these tricks but for a guy like me it was like a whole new revelation in my fly fishing.

Todd Oishi · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »

You've made some very sound observations Brandon!

The other thing that I would suggest is that when attempting to learn this technique (or any other for that matter), is that you leave all of your other flyboxes at home and only carry a box that is lined with Czech Nymphs - and nothing else!!!

After I trained with Jiri Klima in the Czech Republic, I forced myself to practice and fish the way of the Czechs from the moment I returned to North America and for the next five years. Nothing was forgotten as it was all still fresh in my mind and put to practise immediately.

This approach worked extremely well for me, as it helped me to hone my nymphing skills and to become much more confident and proficient with this technique, as well as my pattern selection and design. I'd most likely have had a different experience and results had I carried a box of dries or streamers as a backup plan for the times when the going got tough...

Several years later I spoke with a few of the other fly fishers that attended the same Masterclass I attended, and was amazed to hear how little they had worked with this technique and retained. In fact; I remember watching several of them that were fishing dries while we were in the Czech Republic, as the fishing was a bit slow and dries were producing a little better for them at that particular moment in time.

If anything of value... my experiences in life has taught me that a small child won't master the art of 'tying up their own shoes' - if they're given an option to wear slip-ons...

Mike Wisniewski · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:29:23 PM »

Excellent Post

First of all, when fishing with Loren Williams, I have observed that the moment his fly hits the water, there is no slack in his line, he is ready to fish, in contact, and able to set the hook. Pure technique of being able to have his fly line under control at all times. This is the technique that I have been working on all spring. It sounds like we have been working on the same technique. I have found that by tucking in my elbow, I can achieve greater consistency.

Your post about the slimmer flies brings up a question that I have been thinking about for the last few months. You say " I believe the slimmer profile helps the flies fall through the water column much faster and I've found that I can fish much lighter flies but still get the depth I need." What is the advantage of fishing lighter flies as opposed to fishing a heavy anchor fly with a small dropper? Last year, I tried to fish lighter lies and I believe my catch rate went down. This year I went back to using a heavy anchor fly with a small dropper fly and my catch rate is up.

When you say the Czech style, do you mean to put the heavy fly in the middle?

Mike

Brandon Matthews · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:51:59 PM »

Mike good question, and I'm no expert but something I like about using lighter flies instead of the heavy anchors is I can detect strikes a lot easier. Before I started really trying to learn the proper techniques for czech nymphing, I relied a lot on my sighter. You know the drill, any movement/pause/jump you strike. But what I found is with using the lighter flies as they float through the water column, I have a better feeling, and by feeling I mean feel it in the line, of a fish strike or a rock or even leaves. Not lying, I'm able to come in contact and know right away if my flies picked up grass or leaves. I can just feel that something isn't right ya know. And something that I know I was doing for a long time was using anchors that were far to heavy. I believe there is a such thing as a too heavy of an anchor. It's finding the right amount of weight for each given situation that is tricky.

For technique, I don't know if it's common but I like using three flies....I've done it in the past and I like to do it now. And when I'm using three flies I always put my anchor in the middle. When there is times I only use two flies I put my anchor on the bottom.

And I agree with your findings Mike, I too find if I tuck my elbow in, it really helps to not only take slack out of my line immediately but it does give me a greater consistency.

Also, another little trick (nothing new other than to me) is I like to keep my rod tip raise a little above level, not much but only a little. I seems to really help me with my lead on the flies and all these things seem to really help me come in contact with my flies quickly.

Mike Wisniewski · « **Reply #4 on:** May 04, 2011, 04:52:43 PM »

Brandon

That is funny. I feel that my strike detection is way better with the heavy anchor flies. With lighter flies, I do not feel that I have a good sense of where they are, have too much slack in the line and feel that I am missing strikes.

I actually keep my rod tip up and let my nymphs slowly settle through the drift like a pendulum swinging.

Mike

P.S. If you want a killer czech pattern , try Andy's Burk Orange Sherbet.

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #5 on:** May 04, 2011, 05:12:26 PM »

I too have devoted my entire spring into learning and practicing the techniques related to czech/polish nymphing. From leader construction, through fishing techniques. It has been a tough road starting as a novice to these principles and techniques, but even while I clumsily fumble, distort, and probably abuse most of them, I am catching many more fish then previous years. So, it has only deepened my level of devotion to practicing them.

Interesting this debate about thin profiles. I have been experimenting my tying to all sizes of a particular fly. Take the very same polish woven nymph for an example. I have tied that fly from a size 6 caddis with .30 lead underbody, through a 16 caddis that only had a thread underbody.

I think the debate also comes down to two things, which was also touched upon in this thread. I personally like a heavier anchor fly, and like being able to "feel" the nicks and strikes. I fish this heavier system with more confidence because I am new to sighters, and still find them awkward. I think with a lighter system, I feel as though I am basically blind, and have less of an idea of where exactly they are throughout the water column, exactly as Brandon has stated. I'm not sure if this is because I am amateur at these techniques, or if its personal preference.

Brandon Matthews · « **Reply #6 on:** May 04, 2011, 10:23:42 PM »

Daniel, I think your right...If you feel more comfortable fishing a heavier rig then you should. I think the one thing that makes a successful nymph fisherman is being confident in there setup, there flies and there technique. And I too used to fish a heavier rig, in fact it wasn't until I devoted this time to learn this technique did I start fishing lighter flies.

One thing I did fail to mention is that I'm using 5X tippet. I believe (not 100% but it's my theory) that the lighter tippet that you use the less resistance the flies have falling through the water column. Plus having three flies might help me with the weight. There are so many variable to the equation. I might be fishing shallower water while your fishing deeper. I might be fishing slower runs while your fishing heavy runs...you know. I mean I don't think there is a right way and a wrong way just your way. And if your way works then that's awesome!

Good replies guys...lots to chew on! Thanks for your help. My brain is turning!

Daniel Podobed · « **Reply #7 on:** May 04, 2011, 10:44:55 PM »

I think more and more people are coming to that same conclusion about leader/tippet diameter, and thus the drag it creates *or the other deadly term it creates while euro nymphing- SLACK*.

I think you are dead on with this, and have since put 6 and 7x tippet back in my pack. My usual tippet is either 4x-5x, but have recently switched to 5-6-7 because of several factors. I can normally get away with 5x, but depending on the million variables of the stream, and the distance/depth/clarity i'm fishing, 6x with a slim woven body, may actually help get my flies down FASTER, then 4x with a giant dronestone, vladi, etc

Bill Welz · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2011, 07:34:32 AM »

I successfully Euro- Nymph very slow water with two small flies of equal weight. I also have found in those slow current situations you can construct a large fly to be bulky and relatively light .I first read this in one of Alan B's posts. The goal is to extend the drift of the anchor obtaining a sort of neutral buoyancy and achieving a drift that is the same speed as the naturals .

This crane fly larvae is tied on a 200 r six hook but only weighs one half a gram. I killed with this fly in the White River.

Loren Williams · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2011, 07:46:01 AM »

I am enjoying watching this discussion.

I'm not 100% sure if you guys are relating this to competition or not but a few things you might want to keep in mind:

1. There are many, many locations where you will be limited to 2-flies, or even one (the Youth WFFC will have a single fly restriction on their river venues, one sector will be dry fly only).
2. How do you deal with very shallow water or very slow water if you are not comfy casting and establishing contact with light flies?

I happen to greatly dislike heavy flies, more from a casting standpoint than fishing, but I do feel strike detection suffers with bottom contact. When casting, I seem to find my flies in places other than where I intended if the flies are heavy and that wastes time and destroys immediate contact. If I do elect t fish heavy flies for whatever reason (water type, wind..) then I am going, by nature, to get closer and use a much shorter leader. But, that is just me.

Mike: I guess I now know what comfort zone to take you out of next month

Brandon Matthews · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:38:58 AM »

There are many venues with 2 fly limit? Interesting. I thought with FM rules you were allowed three max. I just figured if your allowed three why not fish three. I do want to relate this "technique training" if you will, to competitions. I guess in my progression I should focus some of my time to fishing two flies as well as singles.

But here's a question for all you guys and Todd kind of touched on this subject. Since Daniel, Mike and I are all basically practicing or learning this technique, should we be specific to the types of flies we are fishing. What I mean is, since we are learning the Czech style of fishing should we only use Czech nymphs? Are there advantages to just using Czech's or should we be open to using flies like Bill's? Should we use Prince's and stones and frenchies or for the sake of this specific style should we only use what is deemed "Czech" nymphs?

For me, I'm only fishing so called "Czech Nymphs". I think they are far under used in PA and I think there design and the food organisms they represent give them an edge. Plus, for some pressured water where the fish might be used to seeing the "normal" profiles like pheasant tails and princes and hare's ears, etc. (if fish can even remember than kind of thing) they might hold an even greater edge.

Any thoughts on this guys?

Bill Welz · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:59:10 AM »

The type of fly you use should match the situation. One way to think about it is high water flies and low water flies. Czech nymphs are great getting down in fast high water. In low water conditions you can use flies that do not sink as fast. When I started Euro -Nymphing three years ago someone said "don't forget all the nymphs that have worked for you in the past". I like the Price Nymph and hares ear . Figure out what flies work for you and rotate through your selection in the course of a days fishing . By the way add a big Tungsten bead and a lot of lead to the fly I posted and you can fish high water.

Mike Wisniewski · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2011, 09:18:07 AM »

Brandon

To me a size 10 czech nymph that weighs .50 grams is the same as a size 10 walt's worm that weighs .50 grams.

Mike

Loren Williams · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2011, 09:19:34 AM »

FIPS defers to local regulation..so if the state or country or club only allows one fly--one fly it is. Same for leader lengths....FFO areas in PA require a maximum of 18 feet of leader (I believe). FIPS does not limit, local regs do. I'd have to say at least as many comps I've been in had a 2-fly red as did three. And I chose to fish single flies a great deal--they are simply more accurate to cast and the contact is without equal. You need to have a well contructed leader though. I really think ost guys resort to heavy flies because the leader they are using does not perform well.

As per flies...CN is a technique and it does not depend at all on the flies. Jiri Klima developed leaded micronymphs for CNing. Vladi PNs with nymphs with tails and hackle and they are not all woven or made from latex.

I have fallen back in love with short nymphing..it has it's time and place and it is super efficient when it is the right time and place. However, I am not a big fan of czech nymphs themselves. Well, I use them, but no where near as frequently as my other stuff. I just think the fly is that last in the chain most times.

BTW: if you really want your czech nymphs to slice through the water...after you tie them flatten them up and down (opposite of what we do with stonefly nymph patterns) with needle nose pliers. Jardine gave me that tip.

Loren Williams · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2011, 09:32:48 AM »

Mike..pound of feathers versus a pound of lead. WW is pretty slick and sinks pretty quick and I am sure that is what you meant. But, for example, when I designed my Frontliner and Hoover years ago one was intended to sink fast, one slow. A .2 gram hoover and .2 gram liner will sink differently-by design. Likewise, a 1 gram turd and 1 gram Vladi will sink differently. Sometimes is pays to have a very large fly and fish it in very shallow water.

Off to the river....need to figure some things out!

Brandon Matthews · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »

Well the way I'm trying to view it is the "why" factor. Everything about the style of Czech nymphing was created and utilized for a reason. From rod to leader to nymphs. I'm trying to figure out the why. Why were those types of nymphs designed to be used in CN?

Don't get me wrong, I love to fish Walt's, prince's, stones, PT's just as much as the next person. I just think there might be some useful knowledge to be learned from sticking to a traditional approach. Or maybe not...I don't know...

Thanks for your opinions guys and your input....I have a lot to think about.

Mike Wisniewski · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »

Brandon

I think the Czech nymph is a very heavy fly with a slender profile that sinks like a rock. My Walt's Worm fills the same function. Last Sunday, my first fish was a big brown on a Walt's Worm and my last fish was a big brown on a orange sherbet Czech nymph. I believe the Czech nymph was developed to imitate caddis larva b/c most of the Eastern Europe streams caddis b/c pollution wiped out many of the mayfly populations.

However I do believe technique/presentation trumps fly.

Did Loren compare my favorite fly to a turd? Hey, I only fish beadhead turds with a red hot spot collar.

Loren Williams · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2011, 01:31:09 PM »

Brandon,

The eastern European guys spend a lot of time fishing for grayling which have inferior mouths and are caddis sepcialists. Caddis predominate over there so their focus on caddis larve makes as much sense as our focus on mayfly larva. Don't for a minute think they they would not or do not use stuff with tails and legs.