State College Streamer Fishing

[Pat Burke]

I tried this post on the TPO website and did not get as good of a response as I'd hoped for.  Since it seems like there are more central PA fly fisherman on here I'll give it a try on here...

Over the last couple years I've been lucky enough to hit some very good streamer fishing all over the US.  I've noticed that many of the western and mid western destinations the trout have been very willing to take an aggresively stripped streamer.  I've been through Galloup's book numerous times and his techniques seem to work everywhere but my home streams, the limestoners in Central PA!  The only time I've had any real success fishing with the a sink tip, large lightly weighted streamers, and the quick jerk strip technique is in fall when the water is high. 

During the fall and winter I spend most of my days just fishing streamers.  It is a nice break from the spring and summer when I am lugging around numerous fly boxes and more gear than I could ever need.  When I go out to streamer fish I carry one box and a couple tippet spools and I am good to go for the day.  Most of the time I fish a floating line with an 8-10 foot leader.  Almost all of the streamers I fish in central PA are heavily weighted often with tungsten coneheads and/or lead wraps and are small(6-10).  I fish mostly slumpbusters and rubber legged buggers.  In higher water I will go bigger and fish cheech’s leeches, sex dungeons, and double bunnies, but those days I rarely catch the numbers of fish, but I do catch bigger fish.  I find that for these trout, day in and day out, an upstream cast where I high stick dead drift the streamer works better than any other approach.  Has anyone else experienced the same experiences with the trout in central PA.   

I've also had a lot of action, but fewer landed fish, by casting on an angle down stream and stripping back towards me.  Although this retrieve may be somewhat unnatural, the fish seem to really respond to it.  However, I probably only hook one out of five fish that strike the fly.  I used to think that the fish were just short striking my streamer so I started fishing smaller and smaller streamers with the same results.  I’ve tried varying the way I set the hook set on these fish, thinking possible I was pulling it out of there mouths.  I tried setting the hook straight up, to the side, and strip setting all with the same success.  I’ve even tried not setting the hook at all thinking I was possibly setting too quick, and maybe the fish would hook themselves due to the ferocity of the strikes I was getting.  It wasn’t until I was fishing Spring creek when the water was low and clear until I “think” I realized what was taking place.  This particular day I had fish in every run hitting my streamer.  I always thought that the fish were hitting the streamer from behind, but what I seen that day was the fish actually approached the streamer from behind or from the side but swiped at the head of the streamer rather than the tail!  So my newest theory on why I am missing so many of these trout while stripping straight up stream is that they are hitting my tippet when they circle around to hit the streamer from the front and either knocking the streamer out of the way or moving it enough that they do not cleanly take the fly.  Has anyone else experienced this behavior on the PA limestoners and if so what have you done to put more hooks in fish while stripping the streamer straight up stream?

Thanks,
Pat

http://troutslayer.blogspot.com/

[Bill Steudler]

Like you said, I find dead drifting streamers to be most productive.  I think the streamer fishing to be extremely situational in this area.  I don't really fish them unless the conditions dictate it or I know where a slob is hiding.  Instead of stripping your flies try a twitching retrieve.  Twitch and let your fly work while always staying in contact.  This slower retrieve gives the fish a chance to eat your fly.  The timing of a fish has to be spot on for you to get a hook in it during the strip.  The fish is trying to intercept the fly at a certain point and it does not always catch the fly at that point.  It gets the tail, the head, or the business end.  Loren Williams has a good approach for low water fish off structure called a "Pitch and Twitch".  You simply bang banks and structure and as soon as your flies hit the water you twitch them a few times and then cast again.  It is a great way to get a reaction strike out of an inactive fish.  If I am forgetting anything I am sure Loren would expand for this for you.

I have noticed fish eating my streamers from the side instead of the head.  Your theroy about tippet could be correct but most trout tippets are not stiff enough to keep an attacking fish off the business end of the hook.  Try slowing down your retrieve especially in non-streamer conducive flows. On Penns, J, and Fishing Creek my general rule of thumb is bigger is better.

[Pat Burke]

Bill,
Thanks for the response.  The "Pitch and Twitch" technique you described has worked very well for me.  I started using it this fall, comparing my retrieve to that of a bass fisherman using conventional fishing gear.  Those guys seem to cast right at the banks and structure, give it a couple twitches and pick up and cast again.  While fishing the local streams I usually fish right up the center of the stream and cast to both banks.  I use streamers that are heavily weighted in the head with tungsten cone heads and lead wraps.   With all the weight in the head of the fly, the streamer usually dives head first to the bottom.  I twitch or jig the fly a few times and then pick up and cast again.  It seems like most of my takes I get are almost as soon as I start my first twitch.  I'm not sure if it is the first twitch that makes the fish strike or that they had already inhaled the fly before the twitch but the action of tightening the line up to twitch allows me to detect the fish.

Thanks,
Pat

[Loren Williams]

Thanks for remembering Bill!

I LOVE to fish streamers and certainly the water type I have before me dictates the fly size, line and method of delivery.  A unique, possibly, situation on many east coast waters is the number of aggressive fish that live ON the banks and in shallow water.  In this type of water they have reduced visibility and I feel operate with great use of their lateral line.  By slamming the fly into the water hard you get attention..reaction bites. 

However, if you over weight the fly it is no longer where the fish is aiming.  I try to tie with just enough weight to create a jigging action and castablity (many times I am casting mostly leader) but not so much that the fly leaves the "splat" area too fast.

Usually bites come from the inside out or outside in....rarely do I witness them attack from behind.  I favor short shanked big gapped hooks since most fish do seem to attack the front side and not the tail side.  I like a RIO midge tip type line for this work so that my aggressive rod actions stay anchored to the water and in contact with the fly. My leader is about rod length and I usually use a level section of 2X.

If I am covering water more than structure then I will leave the fly in the water longer but I still like to fish it high in the column so more fish can see it for a longer period of time.  I prefer to watch the process so if I see a fish move I can mark it's location and go back after it with a dry or nymph if I need/want to.

Long tails and front weight seem to be really important.

On bigger waters I use entirely different methods many times.

Good stuff!

[Jim Frazier]

loren ,

your post is spot on ! i never liked the real heavily weighted sculpin patterns. Like you mentioned lightly weighted and weighted toward the front of the hook so when you stall the retrieve it kinda dives down (jigging motion) also fishing them high in the column presents to many more fish when water temps are at optimum levels ! thanks loren and i have a streamer that fits that bill real well !

[Pat Burke]

Loren,
Thanks for your input!  I will have to try fishing lighter streamers.  So when you describe your streamers as being lightly weighted at the head are you just talking about a few lead wraps near the head or a regular copper cone head, or is more weight necessary.  It seems like buggier streamers with a lot of material do not nose dive like I like with just a single copper conehead. I know conditions will probably dictate what you use.  Most of the time I am fishing spots where it is 1 to 3 feet deep along the bank with a fairly slow current. 

Thanks again,
Pat

[Loren Williams]

Pat,

No, always a tungsten bead and usually some lead--but not so much that it drops quickly to the bottom--I DO want a good jigging action.  I also tend to use smaller streamers than many since I am  not looking just for trophies.

Here is a link to my Rat Bastard and I discuss some design theory.  Disclaimer:  I just fish allot, I am no expert.

http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/ratbastard.html

I feel there is a whole lot out there we do not know concerning how and why trout attack...I am enjoying the learning process.  This summer I got two 4" trout to eat my 3" streamers

[Pat Burke]

Loren,
That is an excellent article that you composed.  It answered a lot of my questions about some of the behaviors I've seen over the years streamer fishing.  I especially like this point you made- " When they puke all over your fly but don't take you can be assured there is something they do not like-and it can be minor".  I think that is what I've experienced using a directly upstream retrieve.  I get a lot of crushing strikes but my hook up percentage is very low.  As I described in my original post, I've tried many different ways to put a hook in those fish including setting the hook in different directions, strip setting, and adding trailing hooks into my flies.   None of which seemed to make much of a difference. I really think you are right that there is something they just don't like.  Maybe its the unnatural upstream retrieve? 

I really wish I could see those fish strike in slow motion to see what is happening!  Most of the times the strikes are violent.  It makes me wonder how they can hit so hard and rarely get hooked.

Thanks,
Pat

[IHPGFY]

Loren,

I like the article, and agree with you about the head strike, size for water conditions and style.  I too used to be of the thought that high dirty water was the prime time to fish streamers, but I have broadened my horizons over the last few seasons as well and now fish a wide variety of sizes, styles and color combo's of flies.  IT all depends on what you are looking to get out of the experience.  I personally utilize my streamer tactics to try and pick out the cream of the crop in a given portion of river.  I methodically plan my approach to the water from where I think that big boy may be lurking and fish accordingly.   I don't know how you feel, but I have yet to find the ideal short shank wide gap hook that fits the bill.  I have tried several, and some are better than others up to a certain size, however the range typically stinks.....

[Loren Williams]

Hi Rich,

The Dohiku S in the run prior to the current (or at least the last shipment I got) was really nice.  Kevin may still have some since we spoke at length about my thoughts on streamer hooks.

The Mustad C49S I have used in the tutorial is also really good and I fish it with complete confidence.

We need to do some streamer assaults once it warms up! 

[Kalvin Kaloz]

Loren, Rich...

what are your thoughts on the Dohiku 644 in size 8...short/straight shank, wide gap and the superb dohiku point?

[Loren Williams]

KK,

Is that the streamer hook?  I don 't have their coding memorized yet...

[IHPGFY]

NO doubt.   I have used the S hook it is nice, but I would like to see a slightly bigger gap on it, but that is just me.  THe 644 is the grub hook and does have some applications especially for that tutorial of the Rat Bastard.  I am trying to find a hook that is say 2.5-3x long, with a 2x gap.  Sounds crazy? Not really I like the TMC 8089np have been a big proponent of that particular hook for various reasons. I can honestly say that I noticed a 35-40% increase in hooked fish and landed fish when incorporated into some of my streamer patterns.   That particular hook model has a great shank to gap length ratio.  Albeit as long as the fish goes for the head of the fly

Loren,
streamer assaults are fun, count me in...

[Mark Hanes]

Loren are most of your streamer tactis all done with a floating line or do you use a sink tip line if needed?

[Mark Ferringer]

I just got a few packs of the dohiku s, and they look sick.  Nice gap, and I tied the rat bastard on some size 8s and 10s- look great. 

[Loren Williams]

Loren are most of your streamer tactis all done with a floating line or do you use a sink tip line if needed?

Hi Mark,

Nope..I use HiD lines a great deal when I need to cover water.  I reserve the midge tip for pounding structure.  Think like BASS guys do--pitching jigs verusus tossing crankbaits.

[Randy Hanner]

loren,

the 644 or G44 is the grub hook.

[Loren Williams]

thanks randy.  I like the streamer hook with the short shank better (too lazy to run down and look at numbers) and I am happy with the C49S--I only tie on about 1/2 of the shank and lots of nasty point is left.

[Jason Christman]

You are absolutely right Pat , about the fish hitting the front most of the time.
Try to lag a little bit on your retrieve instead of constantly stripping, let the fly actually head downstream momentarily every three tugs. I guarentee you will hook many more fish using streamers this way.You may already be doing this  though.If not definately try it , Also , dont tug the same amount every time , alternate it .
 I personally find it way more productive then dead drifting large streamers.
I have even caught them this way casting upstream and bouncing my rod tip up to get the streamer to be active looking instead of just drifting.

[Pat Burke]

Excellent advice all around!  So I was out throwing streamers the other day on Penns Creek and the fishing was very good on my knock off of Loren's Rat Bastard.  I had to substitute for some of the materials I didn't have but overall the streamer worked very well.  The water was cold and fairly clear.  I stayed right on the bank for the most part and fished 20 to 30 feet out ahead of where I was going to walk.  I was fishing no more than 10 feet off the bank and with the angle of the sun I had a perfect view of my streamer as I worked it slowly.  I had a great deal of fish follow the fly about 3 or 4 feet before either taking it or turning away.  My question to all of you is what do you normally do when a fish is following your fly but is not fully committing to it?  Do you speed your retrieve up, slow it down, maybe stop it all together??? 

Thanks,
Pat

[IHPGFY]

Pat,

I typically will try all of the above, sometimes a pause will also result in a pause by the fish.  IF that is the case I strip it again erratically, maybe two quick strips followed by a pause then again, or a twitch of the rod or two.  It's a 50-50 game, 50% of the time you can induce a strike, and 50% of the time you get a turnaway.  It all depends on how much line is between you and the fish.  The closer you are to the fish in relation to where you spot them under those circumstances can also equate to you running out of line and water...

[Zach Bearden]

He's probably not commiting because he gets up close and sees something he doesn't like.
Maybe your bead was too bright? Tail color's not right? If he will follow it up there he's hungry, he just didn't like it for some reason.

[Bill Steudler]

Pat maybe fish a tandem rig.  One big fly on the dropper and little slumpy or something like that on the point.  Big one for an attractor then the little one to eat.  That might induce a take by having more of a selection for a fish with a picky appetite rather than the movement of the fly on the retrive. 

[Loren Williams]

Pat,

Thanks for trying that bug--would love to see your variation of my bastardized bugger!! Always looking to improve!

I think Zach is on the right track.  I seem to feel that when a fish charges the fly but refuses it is the fly and not you or the fish. I tend to find that the majority of the fish tend to act the same way toward the same fly--so I will change color, amount of flash, or size.  Often I find that they will start committing better to a different pattern.  There are days when all they do is chase...fun to watch but not so productive.  I do not necessarily feel that more water time will cause a fish to eat...chases and takes tend to be violent and abrupt...if I do see extended follows it rarely results  in anything positive.

Bill also has a good response in adding a small trailing fly..egg patterns are often a good choice.  The fish may turn off the streamer and eat the trailer.  As long as it does not compromise casting or the action you are trying to create.  I fish less and less tandem streamers these days-used to be a BIG fan.

[Pat Burke]

Hopefully this picture will post correctly but here is the bastardized rat bastard! I used olive estaz for the body with palmered hackle over top of it.  I tied it on a size 10 TMC 2499.  It's a much smaller pattern than I normally use but I gave it a nice long tail that was about twice the length of the hook.




Here is a picture of one of the nicer fish I caught on the pattern!